Superbud and H202

[keepleft]

no probs rod i find your advice most helpful!

 

i used to use the GH 3 partrange back in 1990! when i first started this game. it is expensive yes thats why my partner stopped me using it!

 

to be honest ive tried every bloody nute. GH, canna, optimum, budrite, plantastic and currently nulife. i used a commercial mix made by DURALITE for a couple of years. they sell it by the 100 litres! to commercial tomato and other hydro growers. i would come with my pissy 20 lt drums and he would fill em for 20 bucks each. 2 part.

 

i didnt notice a bloody difference with any nute ive ever used to be perfectly honest. except for how much you need to add to reach the desired EC. i found the commercial one was more concentrated that any retail one ive tried. i would use 500ml as compared to 700ml with nulife. also i find that ph can vary b/w brands. the only reason i still use the brand name nutes is that i get them for next to nothing from the wholesaler now when he is clearing out for new products. otherwise id still be on the DURALITE mix

 

as for the pk additives, ive tried canna and nulife and even a wholesale 25kg bag of powdered pk from israel. its has a high 32/37 pk ratio and its also sold by duralite. i started using it years ago before canna's pk 13/14 was on the market. only reason i started trying pk 13/14 and nulife weight plus is that it was too hard to work out if i was feeding the right amount with the powder. didnt have any directions on it. i just used to throw a cup of powder in every week and hope for the best! but it used to smash the EC through the roof by about 400 - 600 ppm. come to think of it the end product looked good though and i didnt have any problems with the leaf burn that canna gave me

Edited February 22, 2006 by keepleft

[Luke Skywalker]

There is no peroxide in 13/14. Don't know where that came from, but it's very, very mistaken.

 

And the 13/14 is actually the % of total molecules. This isn't very accurate, as the P is in P205 form and the K is in K02. Which means that the actual % of the P and K is 5.59 and 7.56 respectively.

 

The reason I point that out is to show that it's possible to be deceived by the numbers on bottles, and there is nothing to say that these ratios aren't even used in the % term, (as in your powdered pk keepleft), as they're sometimes stated in ratios to each other and not total % by weight.

 

So you can certainly use other PK supplements to similar effects, but you have to be careful and sometimes you can only work these things out by experience. PK supplementation isn't about maturing plants faster, more about giving plants what they can actually absorb and utilise. If you tried to put that much P and K into a nutrient mixture, be it one, two or three or even 5 part, then you'd have horrible nutrient sedimentation and lockout in the concentrate. But plants can still utilise more P and K than is available in nutrient formula. That's not to say that they won't grow perfectly fine without this extra hit, but they certainly like having it available to them and will produce heavier and denser buds when they do.

 

One thing to note with PK is that it shouldn't be used in too concentrated a nutrient solution, as it can react adversely with other nutrients, and cause precipitation and lockout. Overdosing with PK is certainly possible, particularly if you use it on top of a normal A + B. I've found that using it about 3 weeks before harvest ALONE gives best results, (including non-nutrient additives like superthrive and so forth, but not the A + B ), but should the E.C. rise above 2.0 during the week that it recirculates then dilute it down to below this level. That ensures that there is no overdose or lockout occuring.

 

That said, there are many, many ways to use PK, and you could probably find a hundred ways which all gave the growers good results over and beyong their normal findings.

 

As for Superbud... It's paclobutrazol, which has a chemical formula of C15H20CIN30... which means it's quite complex, and thus very susceptible to oxidation and breakdown by substances which are as strong as hydrogen peroxide. This would likely be the reason it's not suitable for use with h202, as are many other complex formula, particularly those with an "organic" base. Remember, organic just means that it's got a base of carbon, which would put paclobutrazol in that category.

 

Nutrient ions are usually (and I say that again, usually) not affected by h202, but this can occur in certain circumstances. For most intents and purposes, however, the nutes in your tank are safe provided you don't go nuts and add a whole bottle of 50% H202 to the tank.

 

Tailoring nutrients to strains would be pretty hard, although Advanced nutrients have gone down this road a little, with separate sativa, indica and hybrid nutrient lines in Canada. These aren't available in Oz AFAIK. It's a great idea, but most people will find that the differences would be marginal for the effort put in, and most growers change more things between grows than just nutes, which makes comparisons inaccurate. Even if you have two plants, on two separate nutrient tanks, in one room, you'll have enough of a microclimactic difference between them (usually the plant nearest air inlets do better) to make a comparison questionable.

 

If you can afford to, and have the inclination, to set up truly identical growrooms, and provide one critical difference between them, say a nutrient brand, then to really, truly know that the difference was pure you'd have to also be ignorant (somehow) about which one was being on treatment "A" and which one on treatment "B"... This is hard, but I'd love to do it one day... (when I win lotto... )

(You'd also need clones which are as close to identical as humanly possible, and the best data would come from 50 rooms with 25 plants of one treatment and 25 of the other rather than 2 rooms with one and one.)

 

Hope that's made sense, and helped.

[Roadblock]

((( Hope that's made sense)))

 

Yep a lot of sense Luke , breeding anything and testing products takes years to get accurate results that are repeatable , there are so many varibles facing the home grower , he just doesnt have the controlled resources to run the numbers needed , I have found over the years top growers with a decent strain get yeilds hovering around 9 to 11 oz per 400 watts of lighting everty grow , I know guys that hit this all the time with basicly nothing but nutrient and no additives I believe this is close to maximum yeild for marijuana as a species , when people start saying they are getting 12 to 18 oz per 400 watts by using such and such additive my ears will prick up , untill then I will strive to make the plant as healthy as I can and the yeild will take care of itself .

 

Rod

Edited February 22, 2006 by Roadblock

[thc24]

hi keepleft, i think you will have no issues with PK + superbud as ive been mixing the two for years.

[keepleft]

thanks luke, rod and thc.

 

luke mate you know your stuff!!! very impressive technical knowledge

 

rod ive consistently achieved 21-23 ounces per 1000 watt for years. i never thought it was that good just mediocrce. i never used anything but nutes and ph (and sometimes a PGR after they brough it in the market). then i got pythium last three grows and ive only been getting 15-17 ounces per crop! big difference.

 

i only started using h202 about a month ago, because ive been trying microbial for the last 2 crops and i dont think its that good imho. i have gone through 15 litres and tried every combination of adding the shit (even up to 5mls per litre) and it didnt help much at all. i started using h202 as a last result with the microbial and things improved big time. (oh and also following rods advice about watering with rockwool helped too!)

 

ill be honest, i started using pk additives and it didnt help my yield . maybe im a shit grower! im still using them cause i hear there so good. but what i dont understand is every time i add the shit (even at half dose and never letting my EC get over 22) in a few days i get heapssss of leaf burn. is it actually doing any good if a lot of leaves are turning yellow and burning up!!! maybe i would be better off without it

 

but for this grow i did use h202 after superbud and also ive put in pk. and ill know in less than 3 weeks if the yield is back to the old level!

Edited February 23, 2006 by keepleft

[thc24]

No not a crap grower, thereare alot of thing that need to be right mainly in the room nutes are secondry. season to season my grow changed always around 15 to 20 oz per 600 but the leaf ratio and wasted branches held me back . thats using atleast three different brands of nutes over 3 grows. PGr s boosted that to 17 to 20 oz . First grow by a mate he get 14 oz dry wieghed every thing popcorn and fuzz bloody good, using nutes only tap water and hand watered borrowed my meters once a month . couldnt believe it also in a small cuboard 90cm x 90 cm.

[Luke Skywalker]

If you have consistent problems with pythium there must be something wrong with the system, or it's gotten into or near the growing area and is constantly re-infecting.

 

H202 is okay, but for my money I'd rather us pythoff as a sanitiser.

 

Thanks for the compliments, I don't necessarily think it's warranted but it is appreciated. Just trying to help.

[Roadblock]

(((( rod ive consistently achieved 21-23 ounces per 1000 watt for years. i never thought it was that good just mediocrce. )))

 

Its not mediocre keepleft its just off the pace a little converting to around 8oz per 400 watts , why was it down a little , I will be my life it wasnt because of missing additives , people are chasing unrealistic yields by looking for miracle additives , if you say yours is mediocre what are you comparing it to , tell me what the best average yeild you have seen has been and I bet you its not much more than 11 oz per 400 watts or 28 oz for a 1000 , Im talking averages here so dont go splitting hairs on me , believe me nobody is consistantly getting 30 to 32 oz per 1000 watts all year , maybe a coliseum or like but not a regular system . you can hit that mark on small freak grows sometimes but the bigger the grow the harder it is to hit that average , but you can get 11 oz per 400 watt like clockwork all year , with just nutes and good management regardless of the size of the grow , thats with a 2 wk veg and 8 wk flower , if you do your figures over years do the additives really work , why do you think commersial crops dont use all this stuff , they want the same thing you do yield , comon sense says it can only be 1) they dont work , or 2) the cost is not recovered in the extra harvest , I tend to think its No2 , because they are top class growers they are getting near the maxium yields for there crop and the additives that do give them a kick do so only slightly and carnt cover the cost .

 

You guys are getting pretty close to as good as it gets , and you have also hit it at times without the additives , so why do you need them when things like the barometer is having more influence over your grow , thc24 hit it on the head saying the nutes are secondary , I agree with him , I believe management of the grow room in terms of air and atmosphere along with lighting and water management are more important than so called high performance additives , if the plants metabolism is not firing flat out a tank full of additives can be like a toxic waste dump , if the plant is firing internally you dont need the additives to get great yeilds .

 

Why I offer this no additive view is not to be argumentive but to try and get nubies learning how to grow correctly first , they see what the likes of thc24 has done and start poring stuff in the tank , they dont realize he can see things going wrong and make adjustment that they carnt see untill its a major problem , that the grow was going to be top shelf anyway purely because of good room management , nubies are in constant information overload , like the greyhound chasing the rabbit and another jumps up and he is off after that one and then another and so on , he never catches the rabbit !

 

Rod

[thc24]

Roadblock,

Thanks so true in every every way.

Thats how i grew first just nutes with tap water , every grow before starting coco i dont count as i class that as playing around not a hobby. Good yields not even knowing of additives, but always got bigger looking as additives like PK were added.

A root stimulant really is worth using for cuts and in veg only way top keep them the same size without repot stress.

 

one byone grow by grow dont go crazy i went backwards for 6 months after mixing too much together ,

My record holder is White Rhino of 42 oz 2x 600 in under 12 weeks with only 6 plants scrogged like a maniac. I mainly use the additives for one reason to keep roots as healthy as possable and happy with good bacteria. A while back i realised the more healthy roots bigger the yield and petter the quality. quallity is the thing i look for now yield is within 4 to 5 oz even when i mix plant # up needs to be scrogged.. Have a mate that does what he calls blocks, hes in a wheelchair so there was alot of design needed foroom goes like this. 400wt over a 75cm x 75 block with eight plants , no veg and seven weeks flower has about 6 of these blocks 3 on each side of a long room allowing him to roll down the center and do what he needs, pulls a block or two every 2 to 3 weeks .7 .5 weeks from start to finn

7 week flower im unsure of as we grow the same strain i give it 8 to 9 wk but he is all about having his room running like a train he says the the cost of holding the newy grow back is alot more than lost in the early harvest, He could be right for his grow. He old style but.

[keepleft]

i guess one very important factor i forgot to add is the strain with which i have always achieved 21-23 ounces per 1000watts flowers in 42days. so i figured that wasnt too bad! (6 weeks is quick). but ive never been able to get that yield with PGR's.

 

i have read a few posts on OG and there were guys in holland claiming they get 800 gr from 600 watts! that made me think whats going wrong here! but i think it might have been an exageration

 

the pythium is what killed the yields last 3 grows. no doubt about it. the additives have helped control the pyth this time (h202 mainly above anything else ive tried).

 

but i took lukes advice and went out and got clones of two brand new fresh and healthy strains for the next grow. there 4 weeks in veg now and no pyth and looking awesome. im not sure what the flower time is though but im keen to see what each strain yields. i also believe i have been overwatering for along time! as the reduced watering irrigation volume has helped remakably. i dont get leaves curling over on the tips anymore and leaves point with lights on.

 

luke i havent tried pythoff but after i finish h202 i will give it a go. the most anoying thing about h202 is the need to add it so frequently.

 

my lighting and air circulation is awesome, 1000w MH's for veg with 1000w HPS for flower. massive air intake and outlet, temps never exceed 30 degrees even under the lights.

 

i used to pay too much attention to additives and gimicks, now i concentrate on the simple things such as watering, and temps.

 

next flower room i start with the new strain im not using PGR's or PK. im going to give just nutes, h202 and ph down. and uses that as a benchmark. see what the yield is - then compare with PGR etc.

Edited February 23, 2006 by keepleft