The God Delusion

[Ocelot]

Cheers dude,

 

I wasn't going to go into all the flaws in Dawkins book for several reasons, 1) I'll be away for a week or so from tomorrow, 2)it's already been torn to shreds by plenty of people far more qualified than me and 3)It was while ago since I read it and i probably don't remember most of his arguments anyway. My point was that unless you are already committed to the atheistic faith or faith in scientism then Dawkins' book just doesn't hold water. And just as people who hold to other worldviews wont be pursuaded by reason, logic and evidence, any arguments against High Priest Dawkins will simply fall on deaf ears. What also doesn't hold any water is this belief that there is a conflict between reason and religion, between 'science' and 'faith', it is simply a tool that evangelical atheists like Dawkins, Hitchens etc employ to befuddle the unthinking masses.

 

Anyway, there's plenty of info out there for those who care to look, as i said I'll be away for a week or so so it's up to the rest of you to solves all the universes mysteries before I get back.

 

Cheers

 

Ok there is a fallacy there of what you call the "atheistic faith" which needs to be clarified. Atheism is not a faith, it is simlpy a lack of belief in gods, thats all. It is not a claim that there are certainly no gods, because that claim just like the claim that there is certainly a god, is unprovable.

If you still amintain that not believing in invisible deities is a faith based position, then i would have to ask you, what dogma have you embraced to reject the gods of mount olympus as false?

Its a common tactic of most religious groups now to lable reason as a kind of faith and it fails for the same reasons everytime.

 

I like the quote "if atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby"

 

 

And unlike what you mentioned, atheists are more than willing to have their minds changed if the evidence is presented. Because atheism, unlike religious faith, is FALSIFIABLE.

Believe me, the so called "high preists" of atheism would believe in god if sufficient proof was provided, but as Carl Sagan said "extraordinary claims require extraprdinary evidence". Religious claims simply dont deliver, provide the proof that Christianity or Scientology or Islam is true and not only would it falsify atheism, but non believers would have to accept it as truthful.

Religious faith on the other hand is in many instances, infinitely elastic, no matter what point of evidence is provided to counter it, there will always be another interpretation of faith to call upon which will square the circle.

 

Ocelot

[Crunchy]

Ocelot, I love you man

[Nooby]

Ocelot,

 

This is my last post as I'm getting on a plane shortly so I'll quickly address just a couple of your points which IMO are patently false.

 

Atheism is not a faith, it is simlpy a lack of belief in gods, thats all.

 

Just semantics dude, there is no such thing as a 'lack of belief', you 'lack of belief in Gods' is simply a 'belief that there are no Gods'.

 

Over the last few years, in an attempt to seem more reasonable, some atheists have touted the line that atheism is not really atheism, here is the etymology and meaning: "atheist Look up atheist at Dictionary.com

1570s, from Fr. athéiste (16c.), from Gk. atheos "to deny the gods, godless," from a- "without" + theos "a god" (see Thea). A slightly earlier form is represented by atheonism (1530s) which is perhaps from It. atheo "atheist."

 

This is the common and historical meaning of the word which runs contrary to your assertion that "It is not a claim that there are certainly no gods, because that claim just like the claim that there is certainly a god, is unprovable."

 

Whether your claim is provable or not is beside the point at this stage as we are simply discussing the MEANING of the word. Now if you personally adopt the definition that you stated then that's fine, that's your prerogative, but lets call it what it is, agnosticism and not atheism. But then just like real skeptics, I'm not sure I've mean a real agnostic either.

 

 

 

 

Secondly your claim that atheism is not a faith based belief also flies in the face of reality, by YOUR OWN ADMISSION you stated that atheism is unprovable, if something is unprovable, then it by it's very nature, has, or can have, NO PROOF and if something has NO PROOF then you must believe in that thing BY FAITH. In fact IMO, it takes MORE faith to be an atheist that it does to believe in pretty much anything else.

 

You also quoted "I like the quote "if atheism is a religion, then not collecting stamps is a hobby" thus attempting to distort what I claimed originally, I did not say that atheism was a 'religion' (although it does share many elements with religion) I merely said it is a faith based belief, I hope you understand the difference.

 

And unlike what you mentioned, atheists are more than willing to have their minds changed if the evidence is presented. Because atheism, unlike religious faith, is FALSIFIABLE.

 

Yes you are correct, it is not even theoretically possible, whereas theism is. But your generalisation doesn't hold I'm afraid as, sure some atheists change their faith to something else, but people of all beliefs do that as well as things occur in their lives or they just 'decide' to change for the sake of it. It's human nature and will, by default choose a worldview that justifies our chosen lifestyle, for the most part. We will (mostly) choose what 'feels' good to us personally regardless of evidence and reason.

 

Anyway, gotta go so i'll leave it there.

 

Peace.

Edited November 3, 2009 by Nooby

[MadamePandora]

I don't have a problem with God, it's his fan club I can't stand.

[Crunchy]

I don't have a problem with God, it's his fan club I can't stand.

 

Haha, i used to say that about Jesus

 

Nooby, honestly i wish i could believe, my lack of a belief in current religious gods isnt by choice, its because religion doesnt provide enough evidence to support its claims of divinity, as well as the fact that they openly discriminate against people. Though i believe that Jesus's teaching are great (apart from the supernatural parts) and if people actually followed his teaching then the world would be a better place, but the fact is that Religion is just a tool for evil and manipulation, and has been for a long time.

If you provide me with evidence that supports your claims and supports the church and Jesus, then i will believe, but im afraid that will never be possible until 'Jesus comes back', which frankly... isnt going to happen... ever.

[GIY]

best discussion i have seen on oz stoners by far.

 

I am a scientist and almost naturally as a result athiest. God is an outdated theory of everything.

 

I remember that when i believed in a god and heaven it sedated me and provided comfort about my own mortality. Being athiest made me face the grim reality that once i was dead the bio chemistry in me brain would stop and i would lose conscieness permanently, this reality made me treasure my own and others life more than my previous religious belief.

 

I used to be anti-thiest but now i just ignor religion being anti-theist is a religion in itself. I now choose to just ignore.

 

I also completely disagree with a number of nooby's arguments. One in particular that atheism requires more faith than most religions. Clearly nooby either does not understand religion or does not understand atheism. Googling and understanding are two different things.

Edited November 4, 2009 by GIY

[ericdesouza]

Richard Dawkins’ book is a passionate argument against religious believes. In ten chapters, he presents the most commonly raised points in favor of religion, for the existence of a God, and in favor of tolerating both, for then to meticulously debunk them and expose their fallacies. His writing style is very clear while being entertaining, though he gets occasionally somewhat polemic.

[Crunchy]

I just received my paperback of the God Delusion in the mail the other day, as well as The Jefferson Bible, which should be interesting!

I've only read the preface and first chapter of the god delusion and so far.. its an awesome read

I love how Dawkins seems to lay everything out in a way that promoted clarity, unlike many religious leaders who all have their own interpretations that many people seem to get confused with. Thus people have their own interpretation of the interpretation and it just gets messier from there.

An excellent example is the debate Dawkins was recently in on ABC, he often repeats what people say in a simplistic way so that even the dumbest person can understand whats REALLY being said. And more often than not his opposition doesnt appreciate the increasing transparency of their reiterated words

[alberta4twnty]

Oh, don't be down on religion. It gives people hope!

 

haha, just kidding. I love Richard Dawkins and have seen him speak in many documentaries and speeches I've downloaded. Never seen him in person unfortunately.

 

The narrow mindedness of a belief in the God (and I hesitate to capitalize that word) laid out in the puny religious texts of this planet is so laughable when weighed against the vastness of space, awesomeness of the universe and the extra-solar planets that we have discovered in the last 50 years.... especially with what we have discovered with the Hubble in just the last 5 years.

 

Religions we made by man to explain the universe that we knew at the time to people who could barely understand the concept of fire. It's time to leave the delusional and frightened cave-dwellers behind and have some scientific progress instead of fear of the future. What humans could achieve in the next 100 years would be utterly amazing if it weren't for those screaming "NO! MY God doesn't want you to do that!"

[brick]

Religion is also used to control people. I attended Catholic primary school and college. Nuns and brothers(mostly faggots).

The fires of hell were belted into us (some of the brothers tried belting other things into us as well).

 

Earth Mother is my religion. You give back what she gives you and you will be looked after.