The God Delusion

[Ocelot]

I own this marvelous book, Richard Dawkins lays out his personal critique of religion and belief in god and never misses with any of his points, first and foremost he is an evolutionary biologist/geneticist, and claims that the fact of evolution was enough to convince him at a young age that there was almost certainly no god.

What do you think of this book if you have read it? If not what is your opinion of the so called "new athesits", authors like Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens and Daniel Dennet? If your not familiar with them hop onto youtube and watch some of the debates they engage in, its really quite facinating.

[BaronS]

If you don't believe in God and he does exist, you're screwed.

If you do believe and He doesn't exist you probably ain't doin' a lot of damage.

 

I'm a believer.

[Ocelot]

If you don't believe in God and he does exist, you're screwed.

If you do believe and He doesn't exist you probably ain't doin' a lot of damage.

 

I'm a believer.

 

Hi Baron s

 

Thats called "Pascals Wager" the french philosopher Blaise Pascal thought that a person should wager that god exists because if he does and happens to be right, then the rewards will be great. If however a person does not believe in god and is wrong then he has essentially lost everything (an eternity burning in hell).

Its actually addressed in Dawkins book and has been thoroughly debunked to such a degree that most mainstream theologians refuse to use it as an argument.

 

Essentially the response is this

 

How do you know which God to believe in? There are plenty to choose from, and if you pick the wrong one, you could be in big trouble (e.g. what if you choose Jesus, but get to heaven only to come face-to-trunk with Ganesh?). This is known as the "Avoiding the wrong Hell problem". Given the sheer number of religions out there claiming to know the "one true god" ALL believers should expect some form of damnation purely as a matter of probability. If those who espouse pascals wager are really only concerned about what happens after they die, then they ought to be realistic and feign belief in every possible god which may exist.

 

God presumably is not stupid. Won't He know that you're just trying to get a free ride into Heaven? How can you sincerely believe in a God simply out of convenience? It's kind of strange to think that this god you are believeing in is silly enough to buy into your "covering your ass" conclusion.

 

If there is no God, you have still lost something. You have wasted a good portion of your life performing the various devotional rituals, attending Churches, praying, reading scripture and discussing your deity with His other followers. Not to mention giving your hard-earned money to the church and wasting your intelligence on theological endeavours.

 

What is so special about believing? Isnt it just as likely that god would reward kindness, or generosity, or humility? Wouldnt god most likely reward a person who was honest about what he could believe based on his own evaluation of evidence rather than a believers cowardly bet hedging?

 

Pascals Wager fails on so many differnt levels its odd people stilll consider it convincing, as Christopher Hitchens puts it, its nothing more than "religious hucksterism". Every argument for belief is addressed in the latest critiques of religion. Give them a read and see what you think afterward.

 

Christopher Hitchens - God is Not Great, How Religion Poisons Everything

 

Sam Harris - The End Of Faith, Religion, Terror and the Future of Reason

- Letter to a Christian Nation

 

Daniel Dennet - Breaking the Spell

 

 

 

Ocelot

Edited November 1, 2009 by Ocelot

[Crunchy]

I have read Christopher Hitchens - God is Not Great, How Religion Poisons Everything a few times and i absolutely love it, one of my fav authors. I've been meaning to pick up The God Delusion for a while, just havent got around to getting myself a copy yet. I also agree with Ocelot, and ocelot my opinion of 'new athiests' is a positive one, if they stay true to the facts and rationality that is and not become too extreme in their cause like religions do. Though i used to refer to myself as athiest, after a bit of soul searching i refer to myself as a secular humanist, though i guess the two dont exclude the other.

[flatcat_auz]

Currently reading the god delusion.......very intellectual which I guess it needs to be to define it's objectives. Although it does resonate with my beliefs.

 

And for those 'believers' out there who I constantly enjoy challenging (taunting as it may be described as)their faith on a daily basis.....read the book or take a trip to library and see exactly how many religions exist. Surely they can't all be right can they?

 

 

Which one should I hedge my bets on? I know one thing Hillsong is one of the productive and lucrative money making machines I have ever seen. It is a classic example of the Americanisation of Australia a lot of us detest. And if you don't agree with my observation......you don't have to look far into America's history.....Tammy baker and her hubby springs to mind. I also find it highly amusing how these evangelical christian organisation pop up only to fold 5yrs latter with no money and the leader (pastor) on fraud charges. N@#$%^$e city church springs to mind. Their so-called drug and alcohol rehab that had up to 3 mandatory bible study classes a day was left floundering as they had no more money to run it(basically walked away). Handed over to another NGO who promptly closed it.........

Onya R#$......nice acreage and a Harley to match.

 

 

 

Edit:Names have been purposely changed blocked.

[BaronS]

The idea of 'worshipping the wrong god' is flawed. Whether you apply a label of 'god', 'allah' or 'vishnu' doesn't matter to the deity.

ideas along the lines of wasting time going to church and wasting money giving to organisation are also flawed by the premise that 'a believer be involved in formal religion'.

 

I said I believed in God, not that I was silly enough to follow wierd rituals designed by people with no grasp of reality.

[Al Fish]

Fearful that my post may be taken down as some sort of vague excursus into analism, I just wish to advise that if you're interested I can supply a non-sectarian method for opening the Third Eye. Guaranteed not to work if you don't do it. Easy, minimal time investment and free. After you open your eye you will know that spiritual entities exist. Then you can postulate on their nature. Anyway, just contact me.

Al.

[Zaknefain]

How you know that you have to believe in God to go to heaven.

 

 

You believe in God, but your belief in tainted by your preconceived mental models.

 

 

I would argue that a powerful God would be praised merely by living - if there is a God, he gave you this life, and one has the choice whether to continue or to end it.

[420 HELI]

 

[bufo marinus]

.... when God reads this, she's going to be pissed