A syk outdoor grow

[Luke Skywalker]

Yeah, pretty much. The binomial nature of specific rank isn't good enuf when you consider that there may be vast variety within a species, and even at a genetic level, even if the plants themselves appear similar to the eye...

 

Orchids is a passion of mine, and I can illustrate the problem with the linnaen system easily using this. If you have a species of orchid, lets say, Dendrobium speciosum, (of which there are many plants, and highly variable between them, from full white to yellow, and lots of individuals between and of other differing traits) and cross that with another species, in this particular case Dendrobium kingianum (another highly variable "species" with plants ranging from faintest pink with flushes of deep maroon to full maroon and all inbetween, as well as having vegetative differences in size, it can be anywhere from 10 - 50 cm high from base of pseudobulb (stem) to top of leaves) the resulting progeny from that cross will be known as Dendrobium X delicatum. This is a plant which shows medium height, a higher flower count than kingianum and a lower one than speciosum, and white flowers, sometimes with purple or pink flecks, but it's fairly variable. Regardless, all plants of this cross are known as Dendrobium X delicatum, as this is the registered name. This is a cross which occurs in nature, via accidental insect pollination, and these plants can occur naturally as these two species are close enough genetically to hybridise with each other. However, not all hybrids, be they primary, (species x species) or complex (hybrid x species or hybrid) are found in nature. In fact, humans have hybridised together orchids and their resulting progeny with each other for only a relatively short time, (1856 was the first flowering of an artificial orchid hybrid, by John Dominy and John Harris )that we've ended up with nearly 300,000 registered hybrids, and even more actual plants out there which are still hybrids, just not registered with the RHS.

 

So when we name a more complex hybrid, one which couldn't occur in nature because of geographical distance, then whomever first crosses, and makes a valid registration of the cross with the RHS gets to choose the name. This name is similar to the binomial system, but it's got a lot more add ons... even with these, it has it's failings, and can't really describe exactly what plant you're talking about... although it's pretty damn close. When you make a complex hybrid... let's take an easy one... like Cattleya maxima crossed with Cattleya intermedia, gives you the first cattleya hybrid, Cattleya Dominiana. (Species have italics, and only the Genera name is started with a capital. Hybrid names are in normal lettering, but the generic name is still italicised, and usually abbreviated. A complex hybrid which shows unusual or exceptional characteristics can be given a clonal or cultivar name, which is added to the end of the hybrid name, and kept in quotation marks. Natural hybrids are represented by a "x" between the generic and specific name, and the whole is in italics. Once again, a special cultivar of a natural hybrid can be registered too, and any name would be in quotes at the end.)

 

Now, just because once a hundred fifty years ago someone made this cross, doesn't necessarily mean that I'll get the same plant when I cross it now, with two completely different plants. The thing about the microspermae, or small seeded plants, is that they produce copious amounts of seed, with relatively small or even non-existent early food storage for germination, and rely on the seed being carried or blown by the wind to a location which has the conditions required for germination and growth. Orchid seed is so small, it has no food store, and relies on mycorhizzal fungi to feed the germinating seed rather than providing a food source in the seed itself. This means it has to produce amazingly large amounts per pod, some up to 3 million or more per pod, in order to assure that some will make it to grow. In nature, almost none of these would make it, but in modern times we can asymbiotically sow seeds on a nutrient rich agar media, which is sterile inside a jar and is carefully sowed and grown under specific conditions for between 3 and 12 months, depending on genera before going on to de-flasking, or normal growth... it may take several years, once again depending on the genera of the cross, for the plants to reach flowering size. But since we have the ability to allow much more seed to germinate than would occur in nature, this allows for plants which would otherwise never had a chance to grow and show off their genetic goods to do so. Every cross by sexual reproduction is contributed to 50/50 by the parents of that cross. The end result is that the progeny will show traits of the parents according to which parts of the genes responsible for those traits are passed on to it. And if you have several hundred seeds, or several thousand, or million, you're going to get a fair amount of variation.

 

Whew, not done yet... still going....

 

Anyway, back to the cross... Now let's say I "remake" the cross which makes C Dominiana. If I grow out the seedlings, I have to call them all C Dominiana, as the cross is registered as such with the RHS Orchid Register. However, we will always be getting different plants. To reflect this, a plant can be given a "cultivar" name... Let's say I find a particular plant among the bunch which shows a new colouring on the lip which has never been seen before... I can make an application to call this C. Dominiana "Skywalker". Only plants which are directly divided or mericloned, (like cloning for orchids, only it has to be done in labs) from that particular plant can be called C. Dominiana "skywalker"... It's close, but it's not quite completely accurate... All the plants of that cross are still C.Dominiana, even tho they can be quite different.

 

Complex hybridisation of Cannabis, however, has been happening for a few thousand years with mans intervention, not just a couple hundred. And now cannabis genetics are so confused and elaborate that it's probably going to take a whole lot of genetic assay work to find out the real relationships between the "landrace" varieties and various hybrids and cultivars.... The binomial nonclemature system we've been using isn't really reflective of the realities of the interraltionships, because they are artificially imposed. Who's to say that the particularly dark cultivar of D. kingianum isn't actually a separate species? Who's to say whether once persons WW is the same as anothers version... Life is something that is fluid, ever changing, ever renewing and dying out, it's not something which can be quantified and identified enditrealy accurately by using two words, heck , using 50 wouldn't suffice.

 

Still, for all my bitching, there isn't really a better way for the moment, well, until someone comes up with one. I think the basic idea is good, the divisions up to family level seems to be fairly stable and accurate, it's when you get further down the line to the generic and specific ranks, not to mention the varietal ones that the lines get fuzzy... Annual plants just make it even more confusing, as each generation has to be different from the last, even in the most stable IBL or landrace.

 

Whew... You've really got me going on this... If I don't make sense on anything, or I'm just plain unintelligible, just let me know...

[syk613]

That all makes sense to me, and thanks for the effort that is a mammoth post I will have to have a closer look tomorrow when I am not as tired.

 

Luke Skywalker

I'd like to see anything that anyone has on substantial research done into the cannabis sex genome

 

All genomes that have been sequnced can be accessed through a genetics database called ANGIS (aust. national genome institute is the name I think) this may be a good place to start (if you can access the system) but it is unlikely that many if any at all have been completely sequenced but there may be parts that have been sequenced more than once and theses variations maybe found here (I'm not sure) otherwise there is of course journals on the subject and a quick search of the relevent litertature may get you what you want (If unsure I can give u directions to access a database of scientific journals,( but it sounds to me like you have probably already tried this.). As for the conclusions that can reasonably drawn from such analyses of genetic code IMO they would need to ID a gene (or genes) that were reponsible for this trait and this may be difficult without some homolgy to known hemmie genes in similar plants I may be wrong, it was just a random thought, but G/C and A/T don't tell you much without previous research to compare it to or further functional analysis of the genes eg what a particular gene does under certain conditions. So I would probably concerntrate on observational evidence as there is likely to be the numbers ,however subjective , that you will get a better result. I would be interested to know what the make up of the sex determining chromosones are ? does any 1 know. ie are there 2 or more whats normal in the plant world? Cheers Luke I hope something here is useful.

Edited October 19, 2003 by syk613

[syk613]

:angry: :angry: SHIT I just walked outside and discovered my healthiest plant covered in a tiny cobweb and under the bottom leaves a little spider about 2-4mm black with whitish stripe length ways, I should have taken a pic of the lil puto in place on the plant but I was too annoyed :angry: so I simply pulled him and his web and put him back in the garden Is there an area devoted to pics of plants with common problems and their solutions?

[syk613]

A 4th plant looks like it has germinated, it was poking through the soil this morning and by this evening it had changed from yellow to green (the juvenile leaves) is this normal? I suppose it is a reaction to the light, and the plant starts to produce chlorophyll ?

[syk613]

Something ate the new seedling's juvenile leaves and almost 1/3 of the first two developing leaves. I am hoping it may still survive but Ionly time will tell.

[Guest Wilderbud]

Something ate the new seedling's juvenile leaves and almost 1/3 of the first two developing leaves. I am hoping it may still survive but Ionly time will tell.

Sucks dude - I have to pick catepillars off my strawberry seedlings a couple of nights each week or theyll end up eat everything quickly. See if you can get some ladybugs or spiders to hang around the plant - I have a big LB and a couple of spiders which hang around on my outdoor plant looking for bad bugs to munch on [keep check of spiders though as they might nest there too].

 

I dont know many other good bugs but my plant hardly ever gets chewed and when it does its just millimeters thats been eaten [good ladybug].

[Guest Wilderbud]

Companion Bugs [google search] should get you up to speed on biodiversity if you happen to be killing ladybugs and spiders etc [i used to do it].

 

Ladybirds

A most useful insect to have in the garden having a prodigious appetite for aphids, thrips and the larvae of many leaf-eating insects. A single adult ladybird can devour up to 400 aphids a day.

 

400 bad bugs could kill a plant in a day and one can save it for ever?

[syk613]

@ wilderbud, thanxs for the advice I would prefer not to have to use too many chems so thanks for the link. I didn't see the bug that ate it but the sprout was tiny and had only just pushed though and started to develop its 1st adult leaves. The others seem fine and one is growing realy well and I haven' had any problems except a nesting spider. So I find the best thing to do is to inspect them like you do with your strawberrys. Thnks again for the link.

[Guest Wilderbud]

No probs, if its a caterpillar then itll eat whole leaves but leave the veins and they eat at nighttime which is why I check them before dark. Theres other bugs bug IMO caterpillars are one of the worst for leafy plants.

 

As youve seen I have bug problems indoors but none outdoors - Im new at this stuff still and might throw organic medium 'out the door' after failing 2 times in a row. I plan on using straight perlite for seeds/clones and expanded clay for the flower section now so I shouldnt have this problem - I wanted to use peat for seeds and clones as its so good for roots and transplanting but its not good for my growspace.

 

PS. my day got a bit better when I pulled my only clone out of the soil a fungus gnat was laying some eggs in a few minutes ago - the best clone roots Ive ever seen [im about to rave about clonex].

[syk613]

@wilderbud Thanxs for the tips this my 1st attempt outdoors and any advice would be great . Any chance of seeing some pics of your grow?