WA PASSES NEW CANNABIS BILL

[pipeman]

strains that don't mature all at once? average smoker purchasing 10g a year? mate these statements are ridiculous. anyone who uses only 10g a year is not a regular smoker by any stretch of the imagination, and certainly would not be a grower.

 

you should stick around here for a few months and read through the forums and post some questions. You can even start polls in the Cannabis Research forum if you want. It will be the best education on this subject you ever had.

 

we can go back and forth in this thread till the cows come home, its not going to do any good until you get a more realistic perspective. And this site is a good place to get it.

[Guest niall]

This legislation is encouraging them to focus on commercial cultivators and suppliers - and personally, I want them to do this, this is a good thing. Cannabis quality and prices in Perth are absolute shite and it's been this way for a long time. I abhor unregulated commercial cultivation and supply, it's the worst possible situation for the consumer and society as a whole.

 

The worst possible situation for a consumer is exactly what this bill maintains. An unregulated commercial supply chain to the consumer who is DEMANDING POT! Going after those who are entering into cannabis cultivation for commercial gain, misses the point entirely. We need to have a regulated, health controlled and cheap commercial supply of cannabis for the recreational and medicinal market. By pushing the commercial cultivator of cannabis for drug use, (rec or med, it doesn't matter) into the criminal sphere, you are more likely to end up with other crimes being committed! If it was a legally regulated market like any other drug or commercial food or drug crop, then THEY WOULDN"T BE CRIMINALS GROWING THE GANGA! IT WOULD BE FARMERS!

 

They haven't made it easier for someone to get a stick of controlled quality cannabis they know won't be infected with spider mites, all kinds of harmful insecticides, and not to mention aspergillus molds and other possible problems with unregulated illicit supply. They've just made it harder. Because like it or not, most people buy their cannabis from commercial cultivators. I don't like it, that's why I grow my own. But to make arbritrary restrictions on the industry which are based on nothing more than hysteria and vested interests DOES NOT EQUAL REFORM TO ME!

 

I'm still a criminal under this legislation, because I grow 2 plants hydroponically, and I grow through cloning. I harvested about 8 ounces of prime bud from my plants, and I know that won't last me more than a few months at most. And to cure the shit I have to hold onto it for a month at least... so I'm a commercial cultivator according to this law.... regardless of the fact that I grow for personal use.

 

As soon as I root my 10 clones which I pick the best of I'm a commercial cultivator. That's the law. And that's what they'll charge me with, because they reduced it to 10 plants....Which also means the penalties have effectively been increased for the avg personal grower, not decreased. Can you see the major flaws here? The legistlation has absolutely nothing to do with the real world, it is based on maintaining the present prohibition, and will not make life easier or better for anyone.

I was referring to the personal growers in WA who will be worse off, because quite frankly the commercial cultivators don't really give a shit. They're going to grow pounds of weed for the market because they can, and do get away with it. And if we don't get off our arses and regulate and legalise completly this aspect at the very least of the recreational drugs market, this kind of black market extraction of billions of dollars from the economy into the hands of criminals will continue.

 

Aussie activist, I think that this has shown that you are completely unaware of the realities in the personal and commercial production of cannabis in this country and state. What would you do to the market, keep commercial cultivation in the hands of criminals? Because by advocating this legistlation as

removing disproportionate punishment

you know that you are lying to yourself, and the public. Along with the Labour / Green senate and govt which we voted in to make these kinds of changes to this unbelievably ridiculous state of affairs.

 

Oh and on the hydro shop parts of the legistlation, yes, I've had a chat with my friend in the industry and they've confirmed that the specific part of the legistlation regarding liscencing has been dropped, but like you say, the parts regarding knowingly selling products which are to be used for cultivation, be that personal or commercial mind, and the charges which would result from that are still there. I STILL think this is going to cause a lot of trouble in the hydroponics industry, and simply pour money into the eastern states and foreign hydroponic retailers. Where would you rather the moneys generated from an industry the people obviously want in their state, (for christs sake, if the people don't want pot, why do they use it so much?) Would you like to see it invested in this states tax base and infrastructure and jobs and so on? Or go to some smarmy git selling cheap fridge grow rooms on the eastern seaboard to foolish newbies in Western Australia? hmmmm... I wonder.

 

If this law is a step in the right direction, then the kids legs were broken before he started the walk.

I agree with almost everything you've said, but given that they were not legalising or decriminalising cannabis in the first place - given those constraints, we got fairly good legislation.

 

It does nothing about the black market, quality or prices - I'm not suggesting this. All I'm saying is that it is a first step towards regulation - they can't regulate non-medicinal cultivation or sale as this is specifically against UN treaties, so they're regulating what they can, paraphernalia and hydroponic stores. Is this the best solution? Of course not. Until the UN treaties are amended, most probably in 2008, and evidence starts pouring in from other countries such as Canada, Britain, Spain, Belgium and hopefully Switzerland - this is as good as we're going to get.

 

Maybe you should consider moving to soil and harvesting less. The average person posting to this forum is not the average smoker/grower, you guys are using and growing far more than the average person - or you've been grossly under represented in NDRI sampling.

 

What would you do to the market, keep commercial cultivation in the hands of criminals?  Because by advocating this legistlation as

removing disproportionate punishment

you know that you are lying to yourself, and the public.

 

Of course not, we need licenced and regulated cultivation and supply - if you read my posts I'm pretty clear on this. How am I lying to myself and the public by saying that this legislation is all about removing disproportionate punishment? That's exactly what this bill is about - every person who has been caught and punished for cannabis offences are represented in NDRI papers. It is these people that the legislation is aimed at - those who have been given criminal records and received disproportionate punishment. The Government has repeatedly emphasised that this is about removing the stigma of a criminal record for smallscale, personal cultivation and use. The evidence is clear that the vast majority of people caught in WA will benefit from this legislation.

[Guest niall]

strains that don't mature all at once?  average smoker purchasing 10g a year?  mate these statements are ridiculous.  anyone who uses only 10g a year is not a regular smoker by any stretch of the imagination, and certainly would not be a grower.

 

you should stick around here for a few months and read through the forums and post some questions.  You can even start polls in the Cannabis Research forum if you want.  It will be the best education on this subject you ever had.

 

we can go back and forth in this thread till the cows come home, its not going to do any good until you get a more realistic perspective.  And this site is a good place to get it.

What don't you understand?

 

There are actually strains that don't mature all at once, growing indoors can emphasise this if lower branches are shaded by the upper branches. If you understand light penetration, train your plants appropriately, use magnification to judge peak trichome production and quality, there's absolutely no reason why you can't harvest progressively.

 

NDRI research shows that the average smoker buys about 10g/year - if you've got other research that contradicts this please share it, until then this is all the Government, and we, have to go on. Being a regular user doesn't mean you use a lot, it means that you use regularly - not everyone smokes more than a cone at a time. They could be using 1/4 gram a week, is this not regular use?

 

Where exactly is my knowledge lacking mate? Just because you disagree with me doesn't mean that you're right and I'm wrong. You guys are not representative of the average smoker, just as I am not. This site will certainly teach me more about the type of people who frequent this forum, but I doubt it will teach me as much as my library has, or years of reading the OG forums have. If you want to point out where I'm wrong, go for it - just be prepared to be corrected yourself if in fact your knowledge is what's lacking. I'm the first to admit when I'm wrong, but you haven't convinced me that I am.

[Guest Wilderbud]

NDRI research shows that the average smoker buys about 10g/year - if you've got other research that contradicts this please share it, until then this is all the Government, and we, have to go on.

I smoke over 10g per week all the time.

 

I drop more weed than the average user - w00t!

[pipeman]

mate what do you think the window of time to harvest progressively is? a couple days? a week? I mean if you harvest an ounce one week, then wait another week to harvest another ounce what difference does that make as opposed to harvesting it all at once? Considering your model of the average personal grower smoking a quarter gram a week, it makes no difference. Even if they smoked a quarter ounce a week, it still makes no difference. I really don't see where you're coming from here.

 

Also, do you realise to end up with an ounce dry you would have to harvest 2-3 ounces wet? A personal grower with one light growing two plants could easily be harvesting 10 ounces wet per crop. Never mind the fact that he only does 3 crops a year and he and his wife smoke smoke less than a quarter a week. The cops bust in on him after a harvest, and he's done for 10 ounces and not eligable for a CIN. That'll teach him to be a professional criminal. Now he and his wife will waste their money to buy inferior pot while from drug dealers. Hey, at least he'll be eligable for a CIN huh?

 

The problem is you're evaluating quantities of the average smoker with the average grower, and they are two different things. I suggest you read my Growing vs. Buying post. There is probably a large amount of people out there who are occasional smokers but not growers, the type of people who would only purchase about 10g a year. However these people should be considered as totally irrelavent when considering legislating for personal growers, as growers are people who use enough MJ to make growing worthwhile. ie a heck of a lot more than 10g a year.

 

Your knowledge is lacking in that you think it is realistic for a personal grower to keep under 30g AND 2 plants at all times, when in fact we all know it is damned near impossible. You have spoken in general terms, if you really know this is possible, give us specifics. How is a grower who uses say a quarter ounce a week meant to stay under 30g and 2 plants? Please tell us, I'm sure a lot of people would love to know.

 

you say your research has some basis in overgrow? Well, why don't you head over there and make a post saying all that you've said here and see what type of response you get. I'm willing to bet you get a similar responses to what you got here.

[Luke Skywalker]

Overgrow is a US BASED CULTIVATION SITE. Not really that informative for australian research.

 

And yes, cultivators who grow for personal use have been grossly underrepresented in NDRI samples.... and I'd say that the avg user has been grossly underrepresented too...10g use per year is a flawed figure and you know it. I can name 50 people off the top of my head who'd smoke more that that in a week. The cannabis industry in Australia is a multi-billion dollar industry. If the avg. smoker was only using 10g a year this just wouldn't be the case, would it. Research based on what those who are busted say that they smoke, and mind you, those who are busted are more likely going to be large scale commercial cultivators, not the avg perso grower, is flawed from the beginning. You can't say, well, we catch criminals who say they only smoke 1/4 grm a week.... so that must be avg use.... what a ridiculous idea. To learn the average cannabis use annually for personal growers and regular users you would be better off actually going out and finding them and asking these questions to them, with a specific survey, rather than just ask those who get busted for blowing up their house with too many ballasts how much they smoke a week and then call that the avg. personal use rate. ::

 

And where in the legistlation does it enshrine the right to self medicate with cannabis? There are no exceptions or provisions in this law for medicinal use, and the govt has no plans to supply the stuff to those who may NEED it as a medicine.... It's a fucking joke.

 

And if the legistlation doesn't reflect the realities of growing cannabis for your own consuption, it will simply make things worse. The views you have regarding growing are curious, you seem to say that because you've read a few books you are knowledgable as to how cannabis grows and how to maintain it. A progressive harvest is a very difficult thing to manage unless you know what you are doing, and is by no means the best way to get good buds. And ultimately the legistlation should be aiming to improve the quality, safety and efficacy of the recreational and medicinal drugs which we are using, for the safety aspects inherent in improving these things. If the legistlation doesn't take into account the REALITY of how people grow pot, then it's not an effective or progressive legistlation, it's just a fucking joke which will make things worse.

 

Regulating the hydroponics industry will do nothing to prevent people growing their own weed, and I have no idea why the government would want to discourage it. With hydroponics higher quality, and much more efficient growing is possible. This shouldn't be discouraged, but actively encouraged. The dutch are making fucking millions of dollars out of this industry. WA has several businessess which are aimed at the home cultivator... These businessess are being directly affected and are going to either move interstate, or offshore.

 

I think you'll find this site will teach you a heck of a lot more about the realities of growing personal weed in australia than any of the books you've read from your library... (most of which aren't written by cultivators, and if they are, are usually 20+ years old) let alone what you'll learn on OG. Its like saying you can learn about Western Australia's wine industry by reading books and looking at a website about growing wine in france. You may think you know a lot, but until you stick that first wine grape into the ground you don't really know squat. You can't really tell how it will do, what it will grow like, how much it will yeild, until you actually start to learn how to grow it, by growing it. A scientist may know exactly what chemical constituents are produced by pot, doesn't mean they know how to grow it well themselves.

 

I don't want you to get the idea that any of this is meant as a personal affront to you... because I do think that we need more organisation on a state level here for reform. What I don't think we need is false hope that this will make things any different, when it's blatantly not going to do much for the real personal use growers out there. And to say otherwise is just not true. If the legistlation doesn't take account of the realities of growing, it's not going to make things better for growers, but worse. The old penalties for cultivation were actually better for me, even though I would class myself on the lowest end of the personal growing scale. I only have a two plant cupboard, but it takes a lot more than two seeds to get that going. And I need to harvest a crapload more than 30g (dry or wet too, no-ones said anything about that.... so if they bust me when it's just been cut and it weighs in at 70g, I'm a commercial cultivator and should be going to gaol coz I'm killing kids with my drugs, but if the cops rock up a couple weeks later and its dried and starting to cure and it weighs 25g I'm a personal cultivator with no harm posed to society... bullshit.) to make the cultivation of ganga worth my time. I can't grow in summer, it's too hot here... I can't grow outdoors, it's liable to be ripped off, (because of the stupid prohibition in the first place making a product which grows on trees worth more than most precious metals weight for weight). So if this legistlation fails someone like me, who's probably one of the smaller personal cultivators... (I know a lot of others growing a substantially larger amount and it all goes into personal smoke) then it's not going to make life better for the avg personal cultivator.

 

And as to the argument about U.N. treaties... well, seems to me that a lot of other countries are legalising and allowing personal consumption and growth without criminal sanction, and not to mention medical use being legalised too, so why can't we? To say that we can't is wrong, we can. Even little Johnny says that medicinal use is something which should be allowed. It's not stopping us, it's scaring us. And it shouldn't, because everyone realises that there's no treaty in the world a leader can't break if they want to... The universal declaration of human rights and several other U.N. legal frameworks are broken regularly by the federal government when it suits them. I don't believe for a second that they couldn't remove themselves from these obviously tainted and illogical treaties on Drug policy and law should they have the political will and the voters demand it. The voters demanded that refugees be locked up, so they are. That's a direct breach of so many human rights laws it's not funny... so I don't think you can say this is what is holding us back from legalisation.

 

The Government has repeatedly emphasised that this is about removing the stigma of a criminal record for smallscale, personal cultivation and use. The evidence is clear that the vast majority of people caught in WA will benefit from this legislation.

 

No, the evidence is not clear. It's not clear at all, and that's the point. Smallscale, personal cultivation and use? Bullshit, it makes life harder for those of us who chose to grow pot in the real world. Let alone those who use and grow for medical purposes and have to try and find a strain suitable to their needs.

[Chev]

10g use per year is a flawed figure and you know it. I can name 50 people off the top of my head who'd smoke more that that in a week.

or a day........... ::

[Tom]

australian_activist, if you are genuine you will stay here and learn the truth about people that grow for personal use only, there are a few growers on this site that will answer your questions.

[Chev]

Seriously,

No-one here grows for more than personal use mate. It's just not about that, Ozstoners isn't a supporter of that kinda thing. I'm sure if you check out most of our regular member's set-ups, you'll see what I mean. Two plants etc is what most of us are about I think , not 50 or 100.

[Guest niall]

mate what do you think the window of time to harvest progressively is?  a couple days? a week?  I mean if you harvest an ounce one week, then wait another week to harvest another ounce what difference does that make as opposed to harvesting it all at once?

 

If you read my post, I said non-optimal cannabinoid profile and yield. That opens the window right up - you can harvest whenever you want, I'm not saying it will give you the best buds, I'm saying it will keep you eligible for a CIN. You could certainly do it within a week or two depending on the strain, that gives you an ounce to smoke one week and at these amazing rates of consumption, another ounce the next when the first one has been finished. The difference is you will be eligible for a CIN.

 

Considering your model of the average personal grower smoking a quarter gram a week, it makes no difference.  Even if they smoked a quarter ounce a week, it still makes no difference.  I really don't see where you're coming from here.

 

Firstly, it's not my model it's the NDRI's model and the only model we have. Secondly, I'm not suggesting progressive harvests are needed for people smoking 1/4g per week - I'm suggesting you guys who are growing and consuming significantly more, could do this to stay eligible for a CIN.

 

I am not saying this is ideal, will give you optimal cannabinoids or yields, or anything other than it will keep you eligible for a CIN. That's it mate. Are the new laws flawed? Absolutely, I've agreed with you 100% on this. Is it possible to stay within these thresholds with a little work and sacrifice? Absolutely.

 

You don't have to harvest your entire crop, you could be doing a combination of progressive harvesting with two plants on an alternating cycle (separate veg/flowering, put the second plant into flowering before the first is done), selective harvesting only the most mature trichomes, reducing the amount you use, or even destroying any surplus to keep yourself under 30g. It is possible, that's all I'm saying mate. Bureaucratic hoops of contradiction? Absolutely.

 

A personal grower with one light growing two plants could easily be harvesting 10 ounces wet per crop.  Never mind the fact that he only does 3 crops a year and he and his wife smoke smoke less than a quarter a week.  The cops bust in on him after a harvest, and he's done for 10 ounces and not eligable for a CIN.  That'll teach him to be a professional criminal.  Now he and his wife will waste their money to buy inferior pot while from drug dealers.  Hey, at least he'll be eligable for a CIN huh?

 

You will have a case to defend yourself if you're caught with an undried harvest - depending on how it's stored and how much you harvested it could be an expiable amount by the time you attend court. If not, you'd have a good defence to postpone it and have it properly dried first.

 

Secondly, why grow 3 crops of two plants - why not 6 crops of 1 plant, or alternate them as above by a month or two, or re-veg, or start flowering at a younger age/smaller height? Your overall yields will be lower but more regular. This couple could harvest an optimal 1 ounce every 1.5 months, and progressively harvest the rest before or after the main harvest depending on what cannabinoid profile they're after. Sure, it's not going to give them the best possible, optimised yield - but with a little planning and effort you can still be eligible for a CIN.

 

The problem is you're evaluating quantities of the average smoker with the average grower, and they are two different things.  I suggest you read my Growing vs. Buying post.  There is probably a large amount of people out there who are occasional smokers but not growers, the type of people who would only purchase about 10g a year.  However these people should be considered as totally irrelavent when considering legislating for personal growers, as growers are people who use enough MJ to make growing worthwhile.  ie a heck of a lot more than 10g a year.

 

The NDRI figures show that almost 25% of these offenders were growing when caught. 30% of them said their main source of cannabis was growing their own, and 40% said it was their next most frequent source.

 

This legislation does not differentiate between growers and users, so while I agree with you that growers will likely have more at hand than users, and that this legislation is indeed flawed in several places, I still believe it is a significant improvement for the vast majority of users. Once again, this legislation is aimed at smallscale, personal use. You guys here are not exactly smallscale in my opinion.

 

Your knowledge is lacking in that you think it is realistic for a personal grower to keep under 30g AND 2 plants at all times, when in fact we all know it is damned near impossible.

 

Damned near impossible? Harvest 30g and destroy the rest! Who's forcing you to harvest all of it, let alone all of it at once? If you're using more than 30g a month, you probably can't stay eligible for a CIN - but until you guys can provide evidence that your use is average, that the NDRI figures are way out, I'm more inclined to believe professional research than a small group of grower/users who happen to frequent this particular (predominantly cultivation based) forum.

 

Is it possible that they've got it wrong? Of course. But until proven otherwise, this is the only verifiable data that the Ministerial Working Party on Drug Law Reform, the Government, and we, have. Our only point of contact with users and growers is the Police, until we have retail outlets, or a more comprehensive study is performed (perhaps not possible until the stigma of cannabis use has been reduced further), this is all we have to go on.

 

You have spoken in general terms, if you really know this is possible, give us specifics.  How is a grower who uses say a quarter ounce a week meant to stay under 30g and 2 plants?  Please tell us, I'm sure a lot of people would love to know.

 

See the example above. I think you could do it on approximately 1 ounce a month, but probably not more. Let's say you're planting two plants 1.5 months apart, or the halfway point of whatever strain/setup you've got - harvest a full 30g at peak potency every 1.5 months, and you should be able to get at least another 15g of sub-optimal before/after the main harvest.

 

you say your research has some basis in overgrow?  Well, why don't you head over there and make a post saying all that you've said here and see what type of response you get.  I'm willing to bet you get a similar responses to what you got here.

 

I'm not going to repeat myself in another forum just to see what the reaction is, it proves nothing. People who hang out on cultivation forums are a biased sample, there's no way we'd get an accurate measure of the average user/grower. Not everyone is online, not everyone knows about these forums or cares enough to read them. I'm surprised at the reaction I've gotten here, but I've responded to each and every claim that I've got it wrong, that it's not possible. And still, no-one has convinced me that I'm wrong, that NDRI is way out, or that this legislation was aimed at you guys: a minority of growers who are attempting to optimise every facet of their cultivation.

 

Cut down your use, throw it away, give it away, grow smarter - if you really do want to work within these guidelines it is possible, you'll do whatever you need to. If you don't want to, just don't :: Either way, this is still a significant improvement for the majority of users - the people this legislation was aimed at.