Need info on marijuana and effects on Severe Depression

[MadamePandora]

Hi all

 

my partner has severe and prolonged depression that is not being adequately controlled by conventional pharmaceutical medication. She has been hospitalised because of it for the last 2 months and next week they are beginning shock treatment (Electro-convulsive Therapy), this is kind of the last resort where medication has failed.

 

I am wondering if anyone here has any information on using marijuana as a treatment for severe depression. I'd be particularly interested in links to reputable studies... if there are any, but if you have anecdotal evidence of it helping you or someone you know I'd also be interested in hearing about your experiences.

 

I smoke it for pain relief and its muscle relaxant properties, but my partner does not smoke it regularly. She has leukemia and one of her doctors has previously recommended it for use with the nausea and muscle cramping side effects of the chemotherapy. (the leukemia is unlikely to be fatal but she will be on oral chemo drugs for the rest of her life so the nausea and cramping will be permanent).

 

I am at my wits end from arguing with F**king psychiatrists for weeks and I am desperately looking for advice or help with this issue and willing to consider any alternative medication or therapy that people can tell me about.

 

thanks

[Fibrofeend]

All that is very well indeed...granted...but is a petri dish the actual human brain??

NO it is not, it is still not measuring what occurs in the brain at that moment.

The human brain is one of natures greatest achievements.

The brain chemistry in everyone is different and is ever changing from moment to moment.

So if you want to put your faith in tests in a dish, go right ahead...

Most of the tests you mention still have plenty of guess work and assumption involved

And yes i have read quite a bit about the brain, and many of the conclusions that are reached

by tests on the brain are subjective to the perception of the person running the test.

I will admit my views towards this are more sociological in basis, i just don't take all these

little tests they do as the absolute truth, and blanket truth for all.

You have to see it for yourself

And also i will say what ever i think on here thank you lucid, as should everyone be able to, within reason.

You of all people should no about getting supposed facts WRONG, quite recently you posted inaccurate

information about people outside of this forum.

I am not having a go, i am simply stating how it is, and you saying to me to READ up on facts before i post stuff

well thats kinda hypocritical.

Edited June 10, 2009 by Fibrofeend

[luciddreaming]

So basically you're saying we should just discard all of neuroscience cos it's bullshit?

The petri dish with brain cells in it will be exactly what happens in the brain.

Only in the case of something like anti-depressants where they work through a complex mechanism, it wouldn't, because they don't just go straight to certain receptors.

Whereas Opiates for instance (just picking something that most people would know about generally how it works) just goes straight to the opiate receptors which you can see by putting those receptors in a petri dish and chucking some opiates in. And they know that when something is an opiate receptor agonist it increases dopamine and they know what dopamine does, egro it all makes sense; the two things corroborate.

And to corroborate that evidence they could give someone an opiate and take a fMRI and see if it goes to where the opiate receptors are located.

NOT subjective in any way shape or form.

 

Well that thing I posted had nothing to do with science and I didn't hurt anybody by doing that. I also admitted I was wrong because I misunderstood ONE bit of information.

Not saying you did hurt anyone, but you could, coz who knows where else and how often you have posted things like that.

This is why people don't analyse things scientifically, when people say "most modern science is subjective/bunk/whatever" Which I've actually heard on this board.

BUT then when it comes to some SCIENTISTS proving Cannabis does so many good things, people are never too quick to praise them.

 

You've got to understand why I'm so adamant about people using the scientific method. Let's say, we get Cannabis legal, like in California; because of the recession and people want money. We've fixed the effect; the effect of people not using the scientific method and realising Cannabis is relatively healthy. But we haven't fixed the cause. Which is people not using the scientific method. Which means when something else comes along like MDMA which can cure depression and PTSD, proven scientifically, people won't listen AGAIN! And we'll have to do this all over again.

Even Cannabis could become illegal again once we get it legal, if we don't get people to use science instead of, as you said "seeing for yourself".

Which, by the way, is the worst kind of evidence you could ever possibly go by. For the above mentioned reasons.

(see: My son smoked Cannabis and got schizophrenia, ergo Cannabis causes schizophrenia)

 

We have got her off the SSRI anti-D's as they have side effects that include increased suicide risk...

 

I want to know how they can even provide an antidepressant that INCREASES suicide risk

 

This only happens in some people. IF that's the only reason you stopped them, that's not a good choice. If you partner WAS feeling suicidal, then that's a good choice. IMO this happens because people think it's going to help them get happy and when it doesn't they just crash completely.

Edited June 10, 2009 by luciddreaming

[Budman2012]

High All,

Nice discussion so far , Good points all round ... Lucid's last post especially ...

 

Check this out ...

 

Medisinsk Cannabis - Depression

 

Also check the corresponding articles ... this also goes to show how science is used to to discover the medical use of Cannabanoids for depression etc They explain how the tests were conducted also

 

Anyway , I already made one topic about this site just because I thought It's articles are very interesting and astutely written ...

I thought I might just list this one here also , tell me what ya reckon

Cheerz and All the best

 

Budman

 

P.s.

Abstract :

 

Long known for their mood altering effects, cannabinoids are currently under investigation for their therapeutic potential in the treatment of depression. Findings from multiple areas of basic research indicate that this system is indeed a viable target for novel antidepressant drugs. Rodent models of depression have been shown to alter levels of the endogenous cannabinoids and the cannabinoid CB1 receptor, implicating this system in the etiology of depression.

Additionally, cannabinoid drugs have demonstrated efficacy in rodent tests for antidepressant drug-like activity, and these effects appear to share common mechanisms of action with current antidepressant drugs, such as the selective-serotonin reuptake inhibitors. Thus, although the effects of cannabinoids on depression in humans remain to be elucidated, animal studies have provided impetus to further pursue this line of clinical research.

[MadamePandora]

My partner has had over 100 suicide attempts in her life.

 

Only one in the last 5 years since I have known her .. while in hospital and on Prozac. I am not being dramatic or jumping on the bandwagon when I express concern about prescribing anti-depressants which increase suicidal tendencies to someone who has a very large and clear history of suicide attempts.

[ettin]

My partner has had over 100 suicide attempts in her life.

 

Only one in the last 5 years since I have known her .. while in hospital and on Prozac. I am not being dramatic or jumping on the bandwagon when I express concern about prescribing anti-depressants which increase suicidal tendencies to someone who has a very large and clear history of suicide attempts.

 

Im sorry to hear that you guys have been doing it hard for so long. I hope you have every success in finding a line of treatment for your partner. Its inspiring to see you looking at alternative medicines. As for nausea and cramping, I've long felt MJ is a *CURE* for nausea and cramps.

 

Unfortunately I dont have any resources available to me on treating depression with MJ. I guess all I can do is throw my opinion forward. Ive had a bit of success in treating depression with MJ - But like everything its not for everyone, Ive seen some people have adversely negative effects after one cone and I have no doubt that in *SOME* people MJ could potentially cause depression.

 

Ive noticed quite a few people on the forum seem to like Sativa dominant strains for treating anxiety and depression.

 

Well thats my rant, wish you all the best Pandora!

 

PS: forgive my ignorance but what the hell is (Electro-convulsive Therapy). It doesnt sound healthy. Please tell me thats not running an electric current through someones brain. :-[

[need4weed3]

PS: forgive my ignorance but what the hell is (Electro-convulsive Therapy). It doesnt sound healthy. Please tell me thats not running an electric current through someones brain. :-[

 

yes it is

[Fibrofeend]

Ok i am back for more! i apologise madamepandora if this has gone away from your original intentions.

I have great sympathy for your current situation, i will gladly remove my next rant if deemed to OFF TOPIC.

 

So do you really think that measuring reactions to parts of rats brains in a dish

will react the same as a LIVING human brain?

 

Even when human brain tissue is used i don't understand how you can say it would react

the same as a living human brain?? there is no PROOF to make that claim apart from the tests you mentioned using

marked compounds, and scanning with FMRI or PET.

Even so these images are sketchy at best and only help identify regions in the brain which certain

processes operate.

 

It is still not known if ANY mental disorders are caused by chemical imbalances in the brain.

This is an unfounded theory.

 

I should have made my wording clearer in orig posts, but there is NO dipstick test for chemical

levels/balances in the brain.

Even if there was, there is no conceivable way to know how these levels should look.

 

Eg: Diabetes is a biochemical imbalance, the biochemical imbalance is blood sugar level being too high or low.

This is tested in the blood and treated then retested to see if the balance is corrected.

There is no test like this for depression or any other Pseudo Psychiatric mental illness.

 

MDMA cure depression?? why do you think depression needs CURING lucid?

sure it needs treating.

 

People need to asses all areas of there life, and work through there problems

not take mind numbing psychotropic drugs to suppress the problem.

This can also be the case with over using cannabis as well but i believe to be more natural than anything man made.

Chemical imbalances in the brain may exist? but WHY? something must contribute to this

like lifestyle, family history, physical disability, abuse and NEGATIVE thought patterns can all contribute to depression.

Ok i have said my peace

cheers all

[MadamePandora]

That comment about chemical imbalances is interesting ...

 

Many years ago when my first marriage broke up under difficult circumstances I went to a counsellor who sent me to a shrink... who did a blood test and said I had clinical depression caused by a chemical imbalance in my brain. He put me on a drug called Prothiaden that would put me to sleep within 15 minutes of taking it. I eventually quit the tablets as they made me so drowsy I could barely function.

 

I have been back on anti-D's myself on two other occasions in my life (another nasty breakup and a serious car accident were the two triggers on those occasions), and I still don't believe that the prescription medicine available is in any way helpful to me. These drugs mess with my personality and my mind and I don't think they doctors have enough understanding of their effects on individual patients.

 

I think the change has to come from within the person, not from the chemical cocktail that is all to easily prescribed by uninformed GP's.

 

however that would be another rant for another time....

 

ECT has commenced and so far there have been no particularly adverse side effects. the main one is muscle pain after the treatment as it induces a fit in the patient, causing muscle pain. I understand that ECT sounds like a primitive treatment, however it has been well documented and used as a treatment for severe drug resistant depression for 50 years, and has a success rate of 80% to 90%. Ultimately, it was my partners decision to try this treatment where all medication attempts have failed. She is desperate to get well and come home. All I can do is be a support person in this, and look for alternatives to try once she is home.

 

Supply in Perth is a huge problem to me, and once my partner is home I will set up a small grow and see where we go from here. I don't have a safe address for purchase of seeds... Is there some way to tell a sativa from an indica plant? All I have is bagseed to start from

[Fibrofeend]

From what i have read about strains Sativa is usually more stretchy in growth

and Indica is smaller squat like plant..but most breeds these days a are a mix.

There are plenty more members on here who are more knowledgeable than i

about identifying different strains. There is a wealth of info on here, so have a

look around and ask some of the serious growers.

As for ordering seeds, i have heard of some people taking out a POBOX

for a month or two under a different name?? i dont know how this works

exactly? do you need ID for a PO Box?

Any ways i hear Planet Skunk are pretty good for AUS orders.

You can deposit cash into there NAB bank account at any branch

Good luck with the ECT, i dont like it but hey if it ends up helping so many...

who am i to judge.

cheers

[luciddreaming]

MadamePandora - Indica is short, fat leaves and Sativa is tall, thin leaves. You can't tell from seeds or buds you buy on the street. Unless you smoke the bud

Indica makes you more stoned/relaxed while Sativa makes you more alert and high. Which is why some Sativa is good for depression.

But ordering seeds online, they will tell you how much Indica and Sativa genetics are in each plant on the website.

 

So do you really think that measuring reactions to parts of rats brains in a dish

will react the same as a LIVING human brain?

Yes. It's the same thing happening. Doesn't matter if the cells are inside or outside of a skull, they do EXACTLY the same thing. It might not be the exact same process (there will be times when it is wrong, like when something has a complicated mechanism of action and doesn't just bind straight into one single receptor type, but goes through multiple pathways etc) but it's the closest thing we have, and coupled with the rest of the things I mentioned it is fairly solid.

 

Even when human brain tissue is used i don't understand how you can say it would react

the same as a living human brain?? there is no PROOF to make that claim apart from the tests you mentioned using

marked compounds, and scanning with FMRI or PET.

Even so these images are sketchy at best and only help identify regions in the brain which certain

processes operate.

What, no proof apart from fMRI or PET (PET is crappy btw, they don't use that because the quality is poor)

And fMRI is proof , I don't understand how you think it is not?

Yes they identify the regions, and when the receptor in a given region logically would cause a given process, and that receptor has been shown to take up a certain chemical, you can rationally state that a given chemical binds to a given receptor causing the visible responses.

 

It is still not known if ANY mental disorders are caused by chemical imbalances in the brain.

This is an unfounded theory.

Well, it's either chemical imbalances or structural abnormalities. Obviously some are going to be one and some are going to be the other.

I should have made my wording clearer in orig posts, but there is NO dipstick test for chemical

levels/balances in the brain.

Even if there was, there is no conceivable way to know how these levels should look.

Hypothetically, if there was, you could know how these levels should look by taking the same test for other peoples brains without the condition.

 

MDMA cure depression?? why do you think depression needs CURING lucid?

sure it needs treating.

Ummmm, so you don't want to cure depression you just want to treat it?

Interesting.

 

 

People need to asses all areas of there life, and work through there problems

not take mind numbing psychotropic drugs to suppress the problem.

This can also be the case with over using cannabis as well but i believe to be more natural than anything man made.

Chemical imbalances in the brain may exist? but WHY? something must contribute to this

like lifestyle, family history, physical disability, abuse and NEGATIVE thought patterns can all contribute to depression.

Ok i have said my peace

cheers all

 

I agree, anti-depressants do just suppress the problem afaik. Some people don't mind this and they just want to get on with their lives. They would rather this than working through the depression and finding out why they are depressed.

People do need to work through it. MDMA, Ketamine, Cannabis and even SSRI's and MAOI's can help a person do this.

You 'natural' statement is irrelevant. It doesn't matter whether it's 'natural' or 'synthetic' it's all still natural. Plus some 'natural' things are way more harmful than synthetic things.

Yes, why do these imbalances exist? If they exist - which I think it's pretty clear they do with things like depression; Serotonin makes you feel happy and therefore depression is a lack of Serotonin - no matter what caused it, you can only feel depressed if you don't have enough Serotonin, period.

Maybe a structural abnormality causes the lack of serotonin, what causes that? Lifestyle factors, environment etc.?