CFL's (again)

[Al B. Fuct]

Indy, I've thought about writing a growbook. Jorge Cervantes asked me a couple of years back when I was writing for Overgrow.com as a Mentor to draft a chapter for an upcoming book of his. For various reasons, I didn't do it and still have some sort of mental block regarding launching into a lengthy project- I couldn't live with myself if I published something I had not painstakingly researched from crow's nest to keel, so I just haven't started.

 

If I did write such stuff, I wouldn't be looking for accolades. I would write to inform, to spread the craft of growing cannabis and to improve the likelihood of success for new growers. I sure wouldn't get rich off such a journalistic exploit- I know what the gig pays.

 

I realise your 'beating up on (small 'g') grannies' notation is metaphorical, but I don't want Granny to think I'm picking on her for any reason other than the science. I have no cause to personally dislike Granny- or anyone else on OSA.

 

Sometimes I don't agree with a particular action or comment by certain persons but that doesn't damn them entirely. Means they've made a mistake. I make plenty of them all the time, but at my advanced age, I've learnt to own up and apologise when I do get it wrong. Getting it wrong is a good opportunity to take on new information.

 

I post on cannabis boards mainly because I DON'T know 'everything.' I'm always picking up some new hint, hearing about a new product, seeing a description of a problem similar to one I'm having or have had, etc etc etc.

[Pure]

I got your pm's ,

 

I decided to leave you all to this topic and see what you AS ADULTS could do to sort out but it's clear that simply doesn't work with some, as you can see from granny's reply Tom was actually spot on about how it would be taken by her , he has been in the position he is in for a long period of time and can generally pick up where troubles going to come from before it gets too bad. More often that not like here he is correct in how people are going to feel about something directed at them

 

His job here is to keep things peaceful on the forums and enforce the rules you ALL agree to when you sign up . He has done that here and nothing more. Anything said after here should be very carefully thought about or back onto topic people can be corrected without attitude

[vertexx]

As a new member to this group I am loath to get into this.

But, after these last few posts I feel I must at least say something in AL.B.Fucts defence.

 

My question, this topic, was asked genuinely and it recieved many great replies.

 

I was eager to embrace CFL's..remember them?..and was almost convinced of their

value by just reading the advertisements and stuff like that.

 

Al. B. Fuct presented his judgement of them and backed it up scientifically with

facts...No emotional outbursts that I could see and I was the one he was mostly replying to.

 

Having scanned his replies over and over, I still fail to see where he has been rude to anyone?

 

It is important to me as a new member to find out from this group just how being rude, inconsiderate,

abrasive is judged.

I must be missing something 'cause I just haven't been able to find such things in this thread from anyone except those

who have chosen to give these descriptions Al.B.Fuct !

 

As far as I'm concerned he seems to have studied the question of CFL's Versus HID's thouroughly and

given his opinion from that study.

Sure, it's easy to get frustrated when your sudden bright idea is shown to be flawed...mine was..and

I hope that AL.B.Fucts. solid reasoning about this subject hasn't caused this anger that seems to

be directed at the poor fellow.

 

From my surfing of this fine community, I've gone back to AL.B.Fucts contributions many,many times and

have learnt more from him than any book I've read in my 25yrs or so of the "art

 

I can only hope he doesn't disappear. I wouldn't blame him, but I think he's much to mature and

wise to fall into that trap.

 

By all means Mr Fuct, write a book..I'll buy it as would many. I've already printed out much of your valuable

words of wisdom as I have of many others in this fantastic community.

 

So finally, may I ask again...how do the moderators define rudeness, insults,arrogance and

all the many other nasty attributes that AL.B.Fuct has been accused of?

 

..And just as importantly, where in his posts are they exactly?

 

I do need to know, so that I don't suddenly get accused of the same thing....if I haven't already by now!

[Pure]

The post that was most in question has actually been removed which is why some of it doesn't make sense if you missed it.

 

We are all about information here and if someone needs to be corrected then thats the case because we would far rather a group of growers that where growing with true factual information instead of just hype , however to keep people your replying to happy you have to consider that their personality type may be different than yours , granny quite franky is a soft , mellow and kind person who Tom could see was going to take that the wrong way. Part of Toms job here is to make it so that the same info can be presented where it isn;t going to seem like an attack at another party and therefore create a group of unrealated posts in the topic with petty scwabbles.

 

I would really apreciate it if this topic could please get back onto track now , i think everyone has had a chance to voice themselfs and I haven't blamed anyone for anything here because the responses and the reader should really take the time to try and really understand whats being said and the motives behind it just as much as the sender shoudl when saying it. Its the internet and people have to realise that people of all walks of life converse with eachother with their own style of writing their own personality and their own sense of humour, Tom did his job here and sometimes that causes some backlash , but in the end it's much more important that we don't fight over the stupid little things or that a simple correction isn't taken the wrong way simply by choice of words.

 

The moderators here are very unselfish in the way that they would rather act on something that they thinks is going to turn into trouble and have the people effected not like them for a time , rather than let it go on and have more and more things said that are never forgotten which often leads to future bantering from one party or the other ( not refering to this post but past issues the forums and other forums have had )

 

It is not an easy job being a moderator and having to make the kind of decisions Tom and the rest of the moderators do , and when he does it he does it for the greater good in the hopes that all out flamewars don't come from it.

 

Moderators are moderated aswell however we do trust in their judgement when they make a call if it's clearly in the wrong they will be pulled up on it, if It is a judgement call on their behalf for the greater good and we can see that then we will generally stand by any decisions they make.

 

* post edited

[Al B. Fuct]

Vertexx, thanks for coming to my defence. I appreciate your praises and confidence.

 

Pure, your points are all well taken. I understand that cohesiveness of a community such as OSA is important, but fairness to the users is equally, if not more important for cohesion.

 

It all boils down to how you wish the management style of OSA to be perceived, be that participatory or authoritarian. I'd have been more than happy to openly discuss any objection to my style or content- but to be deleted and have the thread closed became an issue in and of itself. That's management by brute force, not consensus.

 

I appreciate Tom's tenure of experience as a mod and his desire to anticipate problems to improve community cohesion, but being a moderator is best done from a moderate position. In this instance, he anticipated someone's response and did not allow the person to defend their own stance on the merits of the discussion. Despite all Tom's best intentions, this appears biased and heavy-handed. The discussion was then halted and the focus entirely diverted from CFLs.

 

Tom has been supportive of me in the recent past on other matters and for that I'm very much appreciative. I don't dislike Tom at all and I appreciate his motivations. However, moderating a discussion forum isn't always as easy as using the forum's delete and thread closure functions.

 

Said all on that I'm gonna say. Thanks, folks.

[Ion]

wow al you need to be kicked out already, hes mean and he thinks he is god he HAS done all the things hes been accused of while i dont post much Ive seen it repeatedly and i think this crap has gone too far AL is doing more damage to this site where we are susposed to be colleges not CHILDREN!

 

He accused Granny of terribl things and shes gone now. and she just pm'd me and told me if she cant defend herself she doesnt want to be here anymore and im sure more of that will come up.. This is totall bs. she was like my best friend here and you guys let her get hurt. sheesh.

Edited October 2, 2007 by Ion

[Pure]

wow al you need to be kicked out already, hes mean and he thinks he is god he HAS done all the things hes been accused of while i dont post much Ive seen it repeatedly and i think this crap has gone too far AL is doing more damage to this site where we are susposed to be colleges not CHILDREN!

 

He accused Granny of terribl things and shes gone now. and she just pm'd me and told me if she cant defend herself she doesnt want to be here anymore and im sure more of that will come up.. This is totall bs. she was like my best friend here and you guys let her get hurt. sheesh.

 

 

No-one has an issue with her defending herself infact she was given quite a bit of time to do so before i felt i should jump in but where are we suposed to draw the line ? is it drawn when granny has replied. or when Al B has replied to what she said , or when she has said what she has to say because of what she said the ... you see where i'm going here ?

 

I think for Granny to leave a site she says she loves over this is silly and we would hate to see her or anyone go because of it , It's the internet people are going to disagree and things will be taken the wong way occationaly, everyone got at least one chance to give their part before we wanted the conversation to get back on topic , I don't feel that is an unreasonable thing to ask of at all. if you want to bicker and expect it not to be moderated then do it somewhere else because when you do it in public it will be handled inside our rules and how the moderators see fit just like it is on any internet community . It's not fair to effect the whole community.

[Al B. Fuct]

If it is indeed her intent, I certainly don't want Granny to leave, either. Was never my intent to make her feel like she should bail off OSA.

 

Pure's quite right, some perspective would be good here. It's an internet discussion forum, not a validation of your existence.

[Luke Skywalker]

CFLs are still fluorescents, despite being physically smaller than the traditional long tubes. Fluoros make low intensity light; the intensity drops dramatically only a few inches away from the lamp tube. This is generally OK for slow-veg of small plants. However, good bud development requires the high-intensity light you only get from HID lighting.

 

CFLs as such are not revolutionary nor in any way 'the next big thing.' They DO have some good applications with clones and early vegging, though. Even the big 100-300W CFLs as used in Envirolites and other fixtures, while brighter (more intense) than their small grocery-store cousins, still produce low-intensity light. These big CFLs will do better with flowering than the small ones but simply can't produce the same results as even a small HPS. A 150W HPS will kick the pants off a 150W CFL in flowering due to the difference in luminous intensity.

 

One point that even long-experienced growers miss is that lumens don't 'add.' Lumens are a measure of light intensity, which the human eye interprets as brightness. If you have a 1500 lumen CFL and you put another 1500 lumen CFL beside it, the total luminous output in the effective coverage area near your two CFLs is- wait for it- 1500 lumens. Just because you put one CFL next to another does not make either lamp any brighter or more intense.

 

Reduced: 64% of original size [ 800 x 601 ] - Click to view full image

 

 

For the above image, I set up two 20W CFLs in two fixtures, let them warm up for about 5 mins and measured the luminous output around them at a distance of 50mm. The lux meter read around 63-65K lux from the sides of either CFL by itself. When the lux meter sensor is placed so that it is as close as practicable to within 50mm of both tubes, the meter still reads 63-65K lux.

 

Luminous intensity from multiple sources acts like voltages in parallel. If you put two 1.5V batteries in parallel, you get 1.5V. Same with luminous intensity. As said previously, if you put two 1500 lumen lamps next to one another, you have... 1500 lumens. Neither lamp gets any brighter just because they are next to one another. Luminous intensity is not a measure of the volume or number of photons being thrown at a given point but rather the energy pushing them, analogous to voltage in an electrical circuit.

 

Consequently, you can put all the 1500 lumen CFLs you want in a grow but the luminous intensity will remain at 1500 lumens. If you need more intensity, you need a more intense (brighter) light, not more low-intensity lights.

 

umm, I don't know if I've done something wrong here, but my lux meter tells a different story to this. With one (new) lamp lit above a luxmeter (tecpel 530) @ about 50mm it's reading 80ish, with the second lamp (used about 6 months) lit up next to it above the lux meter it's reading 140.....

 

So adding another lamp right next to the original and not moving the meter increased the lumens per sq meter (lux)....

 

If you don't get more lumens by adding more light sources then what does a lumen measure? AFAIK it's the flow of light equivalent to one candela onto one steridian (an SI unit of space related to a sphere) of space. A lux is one lumen per m2. If I add more lighting I'm adding more lumens (flow of light or photons) because there are more sources of light.... electromagnetic radiation from two sources of the same strength with be larger than the radiation from one source no?

 

Please try and help me understand what you're trying to say here, I'm a little confused as to why two lights look brighter than one, if the lumens (and therefore lux if measured in the same given area) increases... And the fact that my measurements have given a very different account of what you're saying yours do has me a little worried too....

 

If adding more light fixtures in a given area doesn't give me more lumens why would I bother with a 600w lamp vs a 400w?

[Ion]

well as far as i can see more of this kind of stuff is going to result of his foolishness i mean how long is some one going to be repremanded and blocked before someone gets off their butts and does something about it, he berates EVERYONE just when he gets disagreed with or a little mad, and whos to say he ISNT a child im sure there has to be some sort of age limit on discussions about this kind of stuff. I say stop the bs before it starts get rid of people who throw tantrums when they dont get their way before this shit does hit the fan. Granny was a nice lady but i don't blame her for leaving, I mean there are other places where her knowledge can be appricated rather than challenged at every single turn. Im sure EVERY one had quoted magizines and books and ECT this place is here so we share knowedge and get along and hate the man for holding us down together not to get on here and hurt some kind, wise old laidies feelings just because one bull headed bush lovin american cant stand to be wrong. Come on people you all know what im talking about. There should be a limit you should only get repremanded for your before so many times before you loose your privlege to be acknowedged in a place like this. Learn to get along or go somewhere else. Thats all i have to say about it and if no one is willing to stand with me on this one so be it, and if no one wants to go and apologize to granny thats fine too, you all have to live with it on your head, it bullocks if nothing is done about this and we all know it. now do something about it.