harpin protein - messenger

[mickdundee]

hi mate, i agree re the ph at 8.7 being a bit close for comfort! i really didnt expect the ph to shoot up from under 7 to almost 9 with only 2ml of penetrator in 2lts of water. i have always been a bit concerned as to how high the ph of that penetrator product is. to be honest, eden doesnt even suggest to use a wetting agent, so next time im inclined to use it without.

 

I think Dutch Master are over prescribing the amount of penetrator needed. Liquid detergent works at just a couple of drops per litre. I think even 1ml of penetrator per litre sounds like overkill. All that you are trying to do is decrease the surface tension of water so that it spreads better and gets absorbed more thoroughly. Here's what I think you should do. Forget about messenger for now and just experiment with mixing low doses of penetrator in small samples of water (100 ml) to see whether it stops the formation of water beads and run-off when you spray garden or house hold plants. Find the lowest dosage (in drops) that does this affectively without any compromise and then measure the pH of the water. Then, if the pH is acceptable, use that dosage when you mix up the messenger.

 

ive never used plain soap, how many drops of palmolive should i add to 2lts of solution???

 

I'm not sure about the dosage for hand soap but 2 or 3 drops of liquid detergent (dish soap) per litre is enough. I do know that hand soap works aswel but I don't know the dosage because I always used dish soap instead. Try testing low doses of penetrator on garden plants first, seeing as you have already paid for the stuff.

 

watts per square foot in flower is almost 105. thats a mix of HPS and MH. i know its a bit of light overkill! i used to use 600's but i found they didnt penetrate deep enough so i switched back to 1000's. the scrog net size is set up for 600's so using 1000's is overkill. after this crop im going to expand the scrog size to use the light more efficiently. especially with the heat of summer approaching...

 

Wow, that is serious overkill. Anything more than about 60 watts psf is largely wasted. You would increase your grams per watt considerably if you spread that light over a larger area. I agree that mixing MH with HPS in flowering is a good idea. The extra UV-B from the MH increases potency considerably. There are a few growers that have taken it to the next level and use UV-B tubes with their HPS to send the THC production through the roof. It's important to note that anyone who does this should always turn the UV-B tube off before even looking in the direction of the grow because UV-B lights can and will damage your eyes, sometimes permanently. I would personally only enter the room with 100% UV-A & UV-B protected sunglasses and turn the tubes off upon entering.

Edited October 22, 2006 by mickdundee

[mickdundee]

bump Edited October 22, 2006 by mickdundee

[keepleft]

I think Dutch Master are over prescribing the amount of penetrator needed. Liquid detergent works at just a couple of drops per litre. I think even 1ml of penetrator per litre sounds like overkill. All that you are trying to do is decrease the surface tension of water so that it spreads better and gets absorbed more thoroughly. Here's what I think you should do. Forget about messenger for now and just experiment with mixing low doses of penetrator in small samples of water (100 ml) to see whether it stops the formation of water beads and run-off when you spray garden or house hold plants. Find the lowest dosage (in drops) that does this affectively without any compromise and then measure the pH of the water. Then, if the pH is acceptable, use that dosage when you mix up the messenger.

I'm not sure about the dosage for hand soap but 2 or 3 drops of liquid detergent (dish soap) per litre is enough. I do know that hand soap works aswel but I don't know the dosage because I always used dish soap instead. Try testing low doses of penetrator on garden plants first, seeing as you have already paid for the stuff.

Wow, that is serious overkill. Anything more than about 60 watts psf is largely wasted. You would increase your grams per watt considerably if you spread that light over a larger area. I agree that mixing MH with HPS in flowering is a good idea. The extra UV-B from the MH increases potency considerably. There are a few growers that have taken it to the next level and use UV-B tubes with their HPS to send the THC production through the roof. It's important to note that anyone who does this should always turn the UV-B tube off before even looking in the direction of the grow because UV-B lights can and will damage your eyes, sometimes permanently. I would personally only enter the room with 100% UV-A & UV-B protected sunglasses and turn the tubes off upon entering.

 

as usual you are a wealth of knowledge mate! i did find that using the penetrator at 1ml per litre stopped the water beading yesterday when i applied the messenger. im try it drop by drop with plain water next time and monitor the ph to keep it at 8.0.

 

i totally agree with you bout spreding the light out. currently achieving b/w 0.55 min to 0.65 max gr per watt. but thats 1.36 lb per m2 which is very dense scrog. going to redesign the whole grow area when this one finishes. ive currently got a footprint of 90cm per 1000 (as i said the room was designed for 600's). im going to expand the foot print to 120cm per 1000. does that sound about right?

 

i always used to use just hps with flowering, then i 'by accident' used mix of mh with the hps (because i had some mh ballasts lying about) and achieved a higher yield. i didnt realise that it actually increases the potency too! ive been told to use MH for first two weeks of flowering (as it keeps nodes closer) and then also switch to MH only in the last week. but at the moment im happy with running 1/3 MH to 2/3 HPS as light ratio.

 

one thing i noticed about the HPS though is far superior light output. i was checking the globes the other day with a light meter and the HPS 1000's read 30 to 40% higher than the 1100 watt sunmaster MH's and almost double the 1000 watt sylvania mh's.

 

do u use cool tubes? ive recently got onto them and they are the ducks nuts! only problem is can only run the 1000 hps in them, as the MH globes dont fit.....

[mickdundee]

Hi Keepleft, sorry that it's been so long getting back to you. I have limited time on the net at the moment.

 

i totally agree with you bout spreding the light out. currently achieving b/w 0.55 min to 0.65 max gr per watt. but thats 1.36 lb per m2 which is very dense scrog. going to redesign the whole grow area when this one finishes. ive currently got a footprint of 90cm per 1000 (as i said the room was designed for 600's). im going to expand the foot print to 120cm per 1000. does that sound about right?

 

There are 10.7 square feet in a square meter and 50 watts of HPS per square foot is around the most efficient use of light. That's 535w per square meter. 1.4 meters squared is therefore the ideal footprint for 1000w HPS. However, you are using MH aswel, which produces less light, so 1.2-1.3 meters squared, depending on the HPS/MH ratio, is closer to the ideal footprint per 1000w.

 

i always used to use just hps with flowering, then i 'by accident' used mix of mh with the hps (because i had some mh ballasts lying about) and achieved a higher yield. i didnt realise that it actually increases the potency too! ive been told to use MH for first two weeks of flowering (as it keeps nodes closer) and then also switch to MH only in the last week. but at the moment im happy with running 1/3 MH to 2/3 HPS as light ratio.

 

Yes, the reason for switching to MH only for the last week is to increase potency. I'm glad to hear that you increased your yield by mixing up the lighting. Not bad considering that MH put's out less light. I suspect that your findings might be down to chlorophyll-a and b having peak absorptions rates at 642 and 662nm (red) and also 430 and 453nm (blue).

 

http://www.biologie.uni-hamburg.de/b-online/e24/3.htm

 

If HPS is already saturating one end of the spectrum (red), the chlorophyll will be absorbing less efficiently than if some of the power was taken away from the oversaturated red spectrum and diverted to the blue end of the spectrum. However, this might only be the case if, just as in your case, the plants were being oversaturated with light, to the point where chlorophyll's absorption was fully maximised in the red spectrum and couldn't make use of all of the light. In such a case, shifting some of the power into the blue spectrum would allow some of the unused light to be accepted in the blue spectrum. If you decreased the wattage down to 50 watts per square foot, you might find that HPS alone is the most efficient for yield because the plants are making use of all of the light in the red spectrum efficiently. However, this might not be the case, experiment with combinations when you decrease to around 50 watts per square foot.

 

do u use cool tubes? ive recently got onto them and they are the ducks nuts! only problem is can only run the 1000 hps in them, as the MH globes dont fit.....

 

Yes, cool tubes are excellent for people with heat issues. They allow you to get the lights much closer and they are also great for vertical growing. However, they will markedly cut down on the amount of UV reaching your plants because glass absorbs UV. It's a good thing that your MHs don't fit into the cooltubes. HPS produces very little UV so putting them into cooltubes won't make much of a difference to potency. Cannabis produces cannabinoids, including THC even if there is no UV. It is within it's genetics to do so. UV will just increase the production. It is a trait evolved to act as a sunscreen at high altitudes. UV is damadging to tissues and genetic structures (DNA, RNA). THC absorbs UV and acts as a sunscreen. UV levels are much more intense at high altitudes. It is no coincidence that the most potent wild strains of cannabis come from the mountainous regions of the Himalayas, such as northern India, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Nepal etc.

 

Mick

Edited November 7, 2006 by mickdundee

[keepleft]

hi mate good to hear from you again and thanks for the above info. current grow i am pulling up in a few days and then im redesigning the grow room to take advantage of the light more efficiently. 1.2m2 per 1k. and also moving the rez outside the room to keep rez temp down over summer

 

re the harpin, sorry ive been lazy posting pics! but as an update ive given the flowering ladies their 3rd and last spray this past saturday. there going well but imo i cant tell the difference in bud size between those treated and those that havent been. however one thing i have noticed is on those that have been sprayed, not one sign of botrytis and im almost up to 49 days. there have been a couple of buds on the now treated batch which have been affected. so thats a positive. i know its used in the grape industry to combat/prevent botrytis so i expected it to be of benefit in this regard

 

in relation to the vegging ladies, i also gave them their second spray last saturday. there now 4 weeks old. there is a noticeable difference between the treated ones in veg and those that werent. just larger overall size, not elongated. lateral growth as well. not a huge difference, but going well nevertheless. im very glad no elongation occurred. will keep spraying every 2 weeks from here on

 

pics will follow soon i promise!