Help With Cloning Advice

[aussie1]

I usually grow 2 plants vegged for 4-5 weeks under 400watt, cut clones

then put both plants under a 1000 watt HPS. I have recently decided to get rid of my veg room and grow a dozen smaller plants, veg them for about 10 days, cut the crowns out of them, and use them for clones.

Is there anything wrong with this method? Will it have a detrimental affect

on the clones having to keep them for 6-7 weeks before they start to veg.

Appreciate all thoughts and comments.

Aussie

[nouseforaname]

Cloning the apical (top) crown wont have a detrimental effect aslong as you take a healthy clone and keep it healthy. I personally clone the top then veg it out until its big enough to replace the original mother.. you should get closer to the original genes of the plant as the top hasnt had time to be environmentally stressed etc... Im unsure what you mean by is it ok to leave them to veg for 6-7 weeks, you could possibly freeze them until you need them or look into low stress training under fluros to stunt the hieght of plants...

low stress training

 

hope that helps

[Roadblock]

Hi

 

"you should get closer to the original genes of the plant as the top hasnt had time to be environmentally stressed etc"

 

The genes are the same no matter what you do to it , its the dominate traits that change from generation to generation within a strain and this is controlled by the breeder in his selection , this is why a great pure strain of anything can be ruined within only a few generations by a breeder not selecting the very best from the strain .

 

The above is why its best to have a mother plant and she should be the best clone that rooted fast with a great mass of roots , take your cuts from her and keep the best to replace her , do this for a little while and your plants will be near identical in size and vigor and yield , no cows and calfs with this method .

 

What you want to do taking cuttings from cuttings will work no problems , but if you are using one pure strain it will deterioate over time because the recessive traits within the strain will come to the front because cuttings from cuttings is poor selection, its called filial degeneration , meaning the tendency of an individual of a strain or line to revert to the average of that line , basicly meaning less vigor , more varition , less yeild .

 

Rod

Edited May 27, 2004 by Roadblock

[aussie1]

Thanks guys for valuable info. Stonedas, I didn't mean was it ok to veg for 6-7 weeks, I meant was it ok to leave them in their propogation tray under a fluoro for 6-7 weeks before I started to veg as I don't want the hassle of a separate grow room anymore as it is getting a bit complicated with visitors coming all of the time. (live only minutes from worlds best beaches, nightlife, perfect weather, and every bastard wants to come and stay all of the time).

Roadblock, you mention that continually cloning from a clone (the original plant was vegged for 7 weeks so I take it that every clone taken from every clone is biologically 7 weeks old?) with eventually have a negative affect, 'filial degeneration' , can I overcome this by vegging a clone say, every 12 months to 7 or 8 weeks, take clones from her, then start cloning from clones again?Actually I won't be cloning from a clone, I will in every instance veg for about 10 - 14 days.

Very interested in both your thoughts on this. Will also do a google search on filial degeneration (thanks) so I can at least know what the hell

I am doing to my babes.

Thanks again

[Roadblock]

Hi

 

Continually cloning from clones is not in essence a cause of filial degeneration , its making it easy for it to happen , filal degeneration is a phenononem of nature and is inherant is all species of life and in performance breeding its always working in the background trying to revert to the average of the strain .

Cloning from clones will cause degradation of the strain because you are breeding from stock that hasnt proved or shown its full potensial for vigor and yield at that early stage , the door is wide open for filial degeneration , only by selecting the very best performers as brood stock can you keep the average of the strain at the high end of its genetic potensial ,and the fact that in performance breeding of anything you got to test the finished product to find the best traits that you require of the strain ,meaning you got to have proven mums displaying the traits you are after to stack the odds your way so that you are continally selecting to improve the strain , think of your last grow and the very best plant you had , wouldnt you like all of your plants to be like that , selective breeding will give that to you .

 

To say a cutting taken from 7wk old mum is 7wks old is a real touchy theory thats sounds logical , but in nature I dont think it works like that , maybe the severing and regrowing of roots constitutes a new birth in plants .

I think the idea that a cutting is identical to the plant it came from , hence the name clone is a misconception , it must have identical genes as it came from the one source , but I feel the traits (dominate and recessives) must be passed on in different quantitys to the individual cuttings taken from the same plant , again this is why its important to select the very best as propagaters of the next crop .

 

I think the same process used by mother nature that makes a puppy a champion while his litter mates are nothing special is also playing a hand into why cuttings from the same plant are not all identical .

 

Performance breeding is a very Interesting subject

 

Rod

[jackfrost]

Hey Aussie,

 

it not a real good idea to leave your clone sitting in propogation tray for six weeks as the roots will fill the cube then start to go brown and die as they have nowwhere to go. This can lead to problems later.

 

I suppose you could put smaller cube into a larger cube and this will give you a extra week or two.

 

You really have to know the strain you are growing so you can time everything right. This only comes with experiance.

 

The best time to move cuttings from tray to vegie growth is when they are busting white healty roots out of the cube and have not started to go brown yet.

 

The easiest way i think for clones these days is to make yourself a aero-cloner. The cloner can than be used to vegie growth your plants aslong if you so wish, just by adding vegie nutes to the tank.

 

Jack

[nouseforaname]

hey,

your right that the genes can only be as good as the parents or breeder selected. But once you have selected your own mother plant from the seeds, where you clone does make alot of difference as does how you log info ..

the first node down and third node will be the same for growth traits then if cloned and mummed out.. ...this then gives you 2 mums A1 & A3 then when grown out and mummed reclone A1-node1/3 and A3-node1/3 will be the same etc...now you have 4 mums the same.. same goes with the 2nd and 4th node... the only reason these will be different to each other is environmental conditions (which side of plant is closer to the light etc) the apical tip doesnt have any time to be stressed by environmental conditions

when the first fan leaf shows from the apical tip it may be uniform for serates to veins but the same leaf a few weeks later will have deformities such as a few double serates, a wierd vein or even something as simple as a purple vein.. these are caused by stress/pests/diseases etc.. Now if you were to clone from one of these branches you will more than likely loose something from the plant because its not the same as the original seed mum you started with...

 

I wouldnt veg for 6-7 weeks in the clone tray but i would consider putting them into 6" pots of coco/perlite and then when they seam a bit rootbound unpot them loosen some perlite from the rootmass then put back into a 6" pot with a inch of substrate on the base. This will keep them on the backburner till you need them...

[Roadblock]

Hi

Been a while , interesting topic this

 

I agree Agent that where on the plant and at what stage to take the cutting from will have an effect , but not a genetic one , even if you stunted the mum and grew her out of it she would give great clones , no problem , but you wouldn't want to stunt the next generation or two , select your clones based on the most vigerous root growth and then keep as the sole mum the best of your best and take only cuttings from her for the next round , best to best cannot fail because its a truth in nature .

 

Then we have the question what is the best and everybody carnt be right , where all the fun begins is in the selection as two men looking at the same thing can see two different things and then go down two separate paths , who ends up with better strain the trick to selection is your choice of path being true in a real world and only time will show you , sometimes that can take a long time to reveal itself , and time is the most valuable item you have its something you will never get back !, so its so important to make the right choices early in everything you do , not just growing mull , the results the same for everything you make the right choices and everything powers .

 

Ok I've had me billy and a rave I'm off

Have fun guys

Rod

 

PS Got a question for yah Agent , in your diagram , it has the enviroment and genotype contributing equally , I reckon the enviroment doesn't come into it first generation so long as the mother was healthy at the time of cutting ., does that make any sense to yah ?

Edited December 3, 2005 by Roadblock

[iTiC]

hey,

your right that the genes can only be as good as the parents or breeder selected. But once you have selected your own mother plant from the seeds, where you clone does make alot of difference as does how you log info ..

the first node down and third node will be the same for growth traits then if cloned and mummed out.. ...this then gives you 2 mums A1 & A3 then when grown out and mummed reclone A1-node1/3 and A3-node1/3 will be the same etc...now you have 4 mums the same.. same goes with the 2nd and 4th node... the only reason these will be different to each other is environmental conditions (which side of plant is closer to the light etc) the apical tip doesnt have any time to be stressed by environmental conditions

when the first fan leaf shows from the apical tip it may be uniform for serates to veins but the same leaf a few weeks later will have deformities such as a few double serates, a wierd vein or even something as simple as a purple vein.. these are caused by stress/pests/diseases etc.. Now if you were to clone from one of these branches you will more than likely loose something from the plant because its not the same as the original seed mum you started with...

 

I wouldnt veg for 6-7 weeks in the clone tray but i would consider putting them into 6" pots of coco/perlite and then when they seam a bit rootbound unpot them loosen some perlite from the rootmass then put back into a 6" pot with a inch of substrate on the base. This will keep them on the backburner till you need them...

Thanks for teh flow diagram. What is thte source there pls. This is right up my ally. Im excited to see an inclusion of envionomental factors. The phenotype being determined by the Genotype;

I think ...DNA is a xenomorph. I think our veiw fo genetics and the almost imposible task of maintaining genetic purity!

Its like trying to put a Jack (spring) in a box into a too small a box!

An interesting tip bit.

It seems its posible to change the shape of a protien molecule using sound! As if it were in the right temp and pH conditions, DNA can be unzipped and zipped back up again, at will.

Employing the 'sounds' tech it MIGHT be possible to alter the gentics of a living thing; like tuning in and changing the dial on a radio.

EDIT: I wondered about cloning the apical node as opposed to cloning the lower node apex's. The only thing I could think of was 'hormones'. The Apical node/stem will have a total complement of hormones (weing the top). The lower nodes wont have the "top" hormones. There is a bio-feedback loop between the roots and the grow tip to let it know that it is now the top and recives all the growth hormones accordingling. I havent tested this, but I imagin it will be easier or more succesfull cloning the apical node as opposed to the lower nodes, as to why the lower nodes eventually grow... well that might have more to do with DNA the xenomorph, I wonder if they are as healthy a copy of the origianl mum, or are BITS missing because something needed to be re-arranged.

Edited May 26, 2013 by iTiC

[Naycha]

epic bumps are epic

 

I agree

 

Naycha