transplanting seedlings and watering frequency

[keepleft]

hi all. i have a batch of clones which struck roots last week. ive let them harden off in the veg room alongside the big lights, ventilation etc. they have started some top growth so basically there ready to go into grodan slabs tomorrow in the same environment in which they were already growing.

 

my questions and problems are as follows -

 

in the past when i normally transplant the smaller grodan cube on tob of the whole slab, sometimes the little buggers kick off within a day and within a week there a foot tall and firing on all cylinders. other times (last time specificallly) they seem to stop in their tracks, the leaves look stunted and dark green and they took almost 3 weeks to recover and start firing.

 

im not sure why they do this sometimes and why other times they just kick off straight away. i always transplant them after the same time frame (i.e. in humidity crib for 2 weeks, and harden off for 1 week in the same environment in which they will be transplanted). so there always at a consistent level of advancement. there basically growing with the first set of new leaves and great root development in the clone box i use just before being transplanted and show no signs of stress.

 

i always run the grow nutes at about 700 ppm on transfer to the big slabs and ph at 5.8 to 6. there under blue MH lights (600 watt conversion) at 4 ft for first few days and gradually lower. 18/6 light times, and consistent air temps of 24 to 30 degrees. with adequate ventilation etc.

 

the only thing i can put it down to is watering. sometimes i muck around with the watering times, volume of water, and position of drip feeder. what are your suggestions when using rockwool slabs?

 

1. is 700 ppm veg nutes ok for nute strength upon transfer (or would 400 ppm be better)? there getting bloom nutes at 300 to 400 ppm in the clone box before transfer.

 

2. what frequency & volume of feeding is sufficient? (1 min = 1 litre - ie rapid water flow rate). im thinking 6 feeds of 1 min each over 18 hrs (ie every 3 hrs - which is what i have been using for advanced veg plants) - or do you think that 3 feeds (ie every 6 hrs is sufficient when there this young?). note that when there in the clone box there getting 6 feeds at 1 min each. im finding that in the current climate - anything less than 6 feeds (ie 1 lt every 3 hrs) im worried the slabs will dry out too much. note also that i used to use the 15 min manual timers and was feeding 4 times of 15 lts !!!! over 18 hrs - so i think they were getting overwatered and thats why they werent kicking off very well sometimes.

 

3. where should i position the drippers (directly into the small grodan cube which holds the clone OR into the main slab next to the cube). if i position it into the main slab, wont the small grodan cube dry out!!! which is what i worry about

 

also, im using microbial at 1ml per litre. does anyone know if i can also add rhizotonic to the nute solution if im using microbial? croweater said on one of his posts that rhizotonic helps kick them off when you transplant the young ones (but the microbial website says "Do not use Microbial in conjunction with any other rootzone treatments, stimulants or preventatives. Microbial should be applied as a stand alone rootzone treatment. ")

 

thanks for any help. also im going to start at grow diary with this one after i transplant tomorrow.

Edited January 26, 2006 by keepleft

[Roadblock]

my questions and problems are as follows -

 

in the past when i normally transplant the smaller grodan cube on tob of the whole slab, sometimes the little buggers kick off within a day and within a week there a foot tall and firing on all cylinders. other times (last time specificallly) they seem to stop in their tracks, the leaves look stunted and dark green and they took almost 3 weeks to recover and start firing.

 

im not sure why they do this sometimes and why other times they just kick off straight away. i always transplant them after the same time frame (i.e. in humidity crib for 2 weeks, and harden off for 1 week in the same environment in which they will be transplanted). so there always at a consistent level of advancement. there basically growing with the first set of new leaves and great root development in the clone box i use just before being transplanted and show no signs of stress.

 

 

((((( If your cuttings are coming from number of different mothers you will alway get cows and calves , the only way to get a regular group of cuttings that behave and grow at the same rate is through selection over generations , when starting grow out your mums and take cuttings from the best 2 , take as many as you can , select from them the very best and fastest root developing clones as the 2 mums for the next grow , then use the next best clones in this grow , what you dont need throw away of give to your buddys , when I start with a strain I will take 50 cuttings to get 10 keepers with the best 2 of the 10 being the next mums after a few generation you will have very even growth rates and yeilds , in the beginning above all else select for speed of rooting and for vigorous root growth , when growing plants the top is a reflection of the bottom .)))

 

i always run the grow nutes at about 700 ppm on transfer to the big slabs and ph at 5.8 to 6. there under blue MH lights (600 watt conversion) at 4 ft for first few days and gradually lower. 18/6 light times, and consistent air temps of 24 to 30 degrees. with adequate ventilation etc.

 

((( Nothing is hurting you here ))))

 

the only thing i can put it down to is watering. sometimes i muck around with the watering times, volume of water, and position of drip feeder. what are your suggestions when using rockwool slabs?

 

((((( Rockwool is about flow and its a very wet medium if you water too regular , in the early stage its very easy to over do it , with slabs a good way is to lay out your slabs and fully charge them with nutrient mix , place yor transplants on them and just keep the cube moist by splashing the cube with a light mix if it feels a bit dry , once every couple of days run your feeders for 10 min or so to fully flush the slabs , then leave them again , after the first 10 to 14 days you can then give it to them at regular intervals , the thing with Rockwool is to run a flush dry regime , dont do liitle top ups that will cause salt build up , when you feed Rockwool flush it . ))))

 

1. is 700 ppm veg nutes ok for nute strength upon transfer (or would 400 ppm be better)? there getting bloom nutes at 300 to 400 ppm in the clone box before transfer.

 

((((( This is not a problem , low nuts strength goes hand in hand with transplants and high humidity , once they are estabished and on regular feeds run it about 20CF .

 

2. what frequency & volume of feeding is sufficient? (1 min = 1 litre - ie rapid water flow rate). im thinking 6 feeds of 1 min each over 18 hrs (ie every 3 hrs - which is what i have been using for advanced veg plants) - or do you think that 3 feeds (ie every 6 hrs is sufficient when there this young?). note that when there in the clone box there getting 6 feeds at 1 min each. im finding that in the current climate - anything less than 6 feeds (ie 1 lt every 3 hrs) im worried the slabs will dry out too much. note also that i used to use the 15 min manual timers and was feeding 4 times of 15 lts !!!! over 18 hrs - so i think they were getting overwatered and thats why they werent kicking off very well sometimes.

 

((( I answered above , but believe me your slabs will not dry out to quick , you are way to wet for transplants , some will go no matter what ( vigor ) others will sit on there arse , selecting clones for root growth will make them all go .

When they are starting out really watch your water content in the root zone , when they hit go mode you can feed as much as you want even running all the time the lights are on wont hurt or slow them ,, but it wont make them better and runs the risks of problems , let your plants tell you how to water them , its easy to find the sweet spot at any growth stage though its its very important early , just take them to the point of wilting , water them then and take them to the point again , time how long it took and divide that by 2 and feed at those times making 2 feeds between wiltings , off course there are varibles between systems and Im not saying its the best way of doing things , but with Rockwool it works and works extremely well , its a great medium but you better learn how to manage water to get it really powering ))))

 

3. where should i position the drippers (directly into the small grodan cube which holds the clone OR into the main slab next to the cube). if i position it into the main slab, wont the small grodan cube dry out!!! which is what i worry about

 

((((( The cube wont dry out as it will suck moisture from the slab like a wick , put yor dripper right beside the cube in the slab for the first 2 wks and then put it in the cube when they are powering , by moving the dripper into the cube you will prevent the posibity of burning the crown of the stem as the salt will build up here if you feed from a lower point of entry ))))

 

also, im using microbial at 1ml per litre. does anyone know if i can also add rhizotonic to the nute solution if im using microbial? croweater said on one of his posts that rhizotonic helps kick them off when you transplant the young ones (but the microbial website says "Do not use Microbial in conjunction with any other rootzone treatments, stimulants or preventatives. Microbial should be applied as a stand alone rootzone treatment. ")

 

(((Mate dont go nuts with all these additives , you have problems so go back to basics , if you do things right you dont need any of the snake oils to grow magnificant plants , most is hydroponic marketing thats directed at big spending mull growers , the million dollar commersial hydro farms use nothing but a species specific nutient , so what does that tell you !! ,, save your money looking for silver bullets , get your plants going the way they should with good management before you start mixing up a chemical waste dump other wise you wont know whats working and whats not or whats hurting you )))

 

thanks for any help. also im going to start at grow diary with this one after i transplant tomorrow.

 

(((My guess is your keeping them too wet in the early stages and with Rockwool this will compond a lot of problems , watch your plants they will tell you when they need water , nature designed them for a wet dry environment , not a wet wet wet !!

 

Be patient , I have had my time of being a watcher of sick or slow plants , I know how anxious the feelings , remember when looking at a plant what you are seeing is the result of what you did to them a wk or two earlier .))))

 

Good Luck Rod

 

Something I didnt mention ,, Drainage ,, its extremely import to have great drainage with Rockwool , make sure those slabs are draining well and not sitting too flat !!

minimum 2 ich fall over 4ft .

Edited February 10, 2006 by Roadblock

[keepleft]

rod thanks for all the effort in answering my questions! i posted the original post on 26 january. its now been nearly 2 weeks since i transplanted. 80% kicked off very well. now on 20cf with no root problems and all is good.

 

i have a couple of questions based on your answers though (mainly for a flower room as opposed to the veg room but still relevant across the board)

 

<<<< the thing with Rockwool is to run a flush dry regime , dont do liitle top ups that will cause salt build up , when you feed Rockwool flush it . >>>>

 

i was told it is better to do small frequent waterings (eg 6 x 3 min ever hrs) versus say 2 big 15 minute waterins over 12 hours. what would u suggest? im using 30x45x15cm slabs in crop boxes. the pump pushes 1.5lt of water per min. should i do 6 x 1min feeds every 3 hrs or one 10 min feed at lights on and one more 10min feed 6 hrs later?

 

overwatering seems to have been my biggest problem in the past hence my battle with pythium. this is why ive reduced my watering to small frequent 1min bursts instead of saturating the slab with 15min feeding times.

 

 

<<<< but believe me your slabs will not dry out to quick >>>>

 

true for the young ones but when the bitches get big i find that they suck water and dry the slabs quickly. my humidity is 30 to 40% and temps 30 degrees with lights on so slabs do dry to touch

 

<<< when they hit go mode you can feed as much as you want even running all the time the lights are on wont hurt or slow them >>>>

 

what about root rot! if i feed too much i get pythium - even using microbial and h202 its been a hell battle

 

(((( The cube wont dry out as it will suck moisture from the slab like a wick , put yor dripper right beside the cube in the slab for the first 2 wks and then put it in the cube when they are powering , by moving the dripper into the cube you will prevent the posibity of burning the crown of the stem as the salt will build up here if you feed from a lower point of entry ))))

 

thanks very useful! i started the dripped just beside the cube and now i have two drippers - one in cube and one into slab. still same water volume though.

 

(((Mate dont go nuts with all these additives >>>>

 

just trying to beat this pythium its the worst thing!

 

<<<Something I didnt mention ,, Drainage ,, its extremely import to have great drainage with Rockwool , make sure those slabs are draining well and not sitting too flat !! minimum 2 ich fall over 4ft .>>

 

very interesting! there currently dead flat, im thinking ill get a length of 2x4 and put it under the base to give each 45cm long crop box a 1 inch slope - that will help drainage. thanks for that!

[Roadblock]

No probs mate I dont mind helping you because Ive been through the mill with pythium and I know what its like .

 

Raise your slabs instantly unless they are suspend in a shade cloth hamick with the bottom of the slab wide open , whats happening is you have no flow so the plant carnt get rid of waste and there very little oxygen movement , then to top it off the center of the slab is getting to be nice and warm , a very cosy saturated slab then boom you got Pythium , it is everywhere and gets into a system just like that , its like any predator it waits for the sick and injured ,, Pythium is more a cycle than an event , you need to break its cycle , once you do that you got it by the balls , but its a bitch allright !

 

A little trick , when transplanting clones on to slabs raise the slab 6 inches at one end with the down end of the bag wide, once they get going drop them too 2 inches , I also like to feed a slab with all the drippers in the high end ( flow and drainage ) , I move the drippers to all when I lower the slab , also take notice of the rate of growth along the slab from the high end to the low end in relation to the wav of moisture thats moving through the slab over time as the slab drains and drys , at this early stage the little closer to light one end is wont make any difference to there growth rate , but the moisture and oxygen level at root zone surely will .

 

 

If you re read my post you will see where Im talking about the different stages ,, you dip the clones like tea bags , then there is juvenile stage where you water manage them closley , find the wilt varibles and water to that etc .

 

In flower or growth it dont matter so long as they are established and are disease free you can feed them as mush as you like , I feed more regular as the wks move on , up to every 2 hrs in the last couple of weeks and I,ll also leave the pump on over 24 hrs the day before I dump the res , just make sure your drainage is very good , if you can imagine a fully saturated Rockwool slab suspended in mid air with no bottom to the bag , the water content of that slab once it drains is pretty close to perfect for growing mull, your managment should aim to keep it at that , although thats becomes a finer line to tread as the plant get bigger with more demands , but if you get into the dynamics of your room you will start to see if things are not qite right pretty quick , that same slab sitting on the floor is a bog ! you can dry Rockwool out over time but you cannot over drain Rockwool , if you system has good drainage you will handle big flow and this is how Rockwool and mull like to work together .

 

Cheers Rod

Edited February 10, 2006 by Roadblock

[keepleft]

hi again roadblock. might have mislead u. im not growing on the flat ground - im using the 'crop box' system (pictured). which has 30x45x15cm slabs in it. the bottom of the top box is slotted which allows drainage into the bottom box which flows back to reservoir, i raise the boxes with milk crates so theres only an inch of water in bottom box.

 

1. do you think i should put the boxes on a 2inch angle to increase drainage? i would have thought drainage would be adequate through the top box, but if it should be on an angle no problem ill put some wood or a tile underneath.

 

2. also i use unwrapped slabs (which creates algae on top and attracts scarid ive heard). should i switch to wrapped slabs? would that help?

 

thanks

Edited February 10, 2006 by keepleft

[Roadblock]

Those boxes drain ok , you dont need to pull all the bag right off the slab only the bottom needs to be open , you dont want the slab open like that , as algae covers the outside of the slab it will restrict air flow through the slab and stop the slab from breathing which is not good , it will also restrict drainage as it will hold more water , kinda like a straw in water hold your finger over the hole and you can pick up the water , in a sense the algae holds the water in the slab the same as your finger over the hole , you could raise the box at the end but its not really needed if the top box is full of holes and the bottom of the slab is open , a layer of clay balls under the slab would help drainage and air movement better than raising one end in this type of system .

 

You pretty well got it wired and looks like its just a case of fine tune your system and watch how wet you got them early and you will be set .

 

Rod

[keepleft]

thanks rod ill put a layer of hydroton on the bottom next time and use the wrapped slabs instead.

 

also ill get some panda plastic and cover the tops of the current unwrapped slabs to stop that algae forming!

[Roadblock]

Hi

 

Thats a good idea just dont make the cover airtight , the clay is a good thing to run under your slabs , a little messy and a bit of rooting around but they will help drainage bigtime , clay balls as a medium is one of the best there is for one reason only its very high air ratio , I use Rockwool these days because of the buffer you have if a pump fails or it gets to hot etc , just remember , lots of small feeds in Rockwool is a sure way to get salt build up and problems , I dont like that way at all , you can get around salt build up by flushing weekly , but if you use flow you dont need to flush .

 

When you are trying to get your system going properly dont listen to a whole bunch of different guys , too many sugestions will screw your head up and cause doubts , you will just chase your tail , keep it simple and apply the basics of good hydroponics , if you must try different products put out by the hydoponic shop industry , try it on one plant in the same room as the others , then you will see what works and what dont , people would grow far better plants overall if they got their free elements being Air Water and Light in the right ratios volumes and quality all working how they should rather than filling there nutrient tanks with all sorts of concoctions .

 

Good luck with your Pyth , you got the info to beat it

 

Rod

Edited February 10, 2006 by Roadblock