phillips 315w LEC with D-Papillon reflector

[pegz]

You're supposed to replace the bulbs after 1.5 years anyhow (roughly 13,000 hrs) at which point the lamp will have lost 10-20% of its initial output. It's not wise to run these things until they die as apparently it can increase the chance of the inner bulb rupturing.

[FrankWills]

 

“a few things i would like to point out here first up. dont believe everything you see in a photometrics chart. companies get creative with there scaling to make there lamps look better. even the new phillips lamps are being marketed by secondary companies with incorrect photometrics.”

 

Absolutely!  Wherever there’s a dime to make, a crime often ensues.  Companies like Philips would be less prone to the creative-arts in this category as they have more to lose by their competitors calling them out on it, but the smaller mobs have less to lose by doing it.  More so, I am told that Philips does all their testing in proper NATA registered photometric laboratories (mention that kind of testing standard to LED manufacturers and watch them run for cover, I have NOT seen a single NATA test report or graph from ANY LED supplier the world over, yet all of Philips’ are).  NATA is the only TRUE standard of light testing in the world that is acknowledged by the entire scientific and University communities, and I know they do it cause a very close mate works in one now for many years and has contact with Philips and all the biggies regularly.  Even now I continually pass things by him regarding our lights and always get really good feedback that is solidly based in scientific fact and knowledge – he’s a fully qualified Photometric Physicist with decades of full time experience.  Funnily enough, as straight as he seems, and he really does look and act extremely straight, he still enjoys a smoke every now and then till this day.  I showed him the spectral outputs of the 315s the day you blokes mentioned them to me, and he immediately said that they were BOTH very good sun simulators that would grow plants very well.  That was straight off the cuff the instant he laid eyes on the graphs… made me laugh. 

 

 

“also like to put out there that lumens arent worth jack really. its what we see not what the plant sees.”

 

If all the tests are standardized, then one good thing that can be gained from the rated luminous output quoted/released by the manufacturer.  It aids in determining the amount/amplitude of any given signal/frequency of a particular lamp WHEN COMPARED to another.  Nothing more, but that in itself can be VERY useful in deciding which lamp is the better of the 2 in producing a given frequency (or band of). 

 

For instance, if lamp A has a luminous output of 50lm, and lamp B, 75lm, and they BOTH have a “RELATIVE OUTPUT” spectral graph (as opposed to an ABSOLOUTE OUTPUT) that is derived using the SAME testing standard, then if both graphs look like the produce the amplitude of signal at any given frequency, i.e., the SAME RELATIVE output (vertical axis on the graph), then it can easily be seen that lamp B produces 50% MORE light of THAT specific frequency; that’s all.  Now how that equates to its GROW ABILITY, is another thing, whereby may other values of the lamp have to be taken into account, especially its CRI.  People don’t realize how important a lamps’ CRI is when determining the TRUE amount of LIGHT produced by the lamp, the CRI is used in an equation that contains the LUMEN output, IRRADIANCE, and FREQUENCY to determine such absolute facts.  Which is why NO company releases a lamps’ true IRRADIANCE, that would be giving too much away… believe it or NOT, that FIGURE is the MOST important of all in determining the TRUE photosynthetic POWER/capability of any lamp, far more important than bullshit PAR, yet none of them provide it in their public spec releases.  The PAR value does NOT take proper form till the true IRRADIANCE factor of the lamp is ALSO provided.   But they do release JUST ENOUGH spec to give one a slightly clear picture of what’s going on.

 

And yes forget, I don’t like using any lamp once it’s dropped below 80% of its initial rated lumen output, we’ve lost almost a QUARTER of the lamp once it reaches that level.

 

I will be interested to see how your grows turn out for sure - good luck with them.

 

 

“i wouldnt be surprised at all if that lamp was similar to the old 400w (385w) mastercolour. which ran on magnetic ballasts and was a great lamp and i firmly believe that it was a major marketing ploy when phillips realised they had a great horticulture lamp in the 400w so they canned ti and created the 315w . brilliant really from a business sense. and they may well still have just as good a lamp in the one you showed. very interesting indeed. i still run a few of the old 400w's so i will probably replace them with the lamp you have showed or at least something similar and when i do i will post those results here too.”

 

According to the people at Advance, it is.  And I know they are of the most honourable operators in this game, many top notch American growers I’ve contacted in the last 3 days have nothing but good words to say about them, telling me not to hesitate doing business with them in any way.  I’m now extremely tempted into getting these over the 315s… and their (Philips) 850W CMH monsters should be given consideration by those wanting to go the 1000W-way.

 

 

“The 930 and 942 in the spectral graphs that you(FIWH) have supplied are very similar, except for a marked difference in the blue end. On the red end there really isn't anything to differentiate the 2 bulbs.

 

An excerpt lifted straight from the official Philips specification leaflet on the MasterColor CDM-T Elite 315W/942 U 1CT, " • Use only with electronic control gear " . 

 

Gday Zen, for all intents, I agree the 2 outputs are similar in many ways, and I read that excerpt from Philips and it appears on other sites selling them too.  So I looked into it and found that their ballast is NOT like most electronic ballasts used for HIDs.  Theirs is a LOW frequency ballast producing around 150Hz output signal at the lamp as opposed to 10’s of KHz that most others use.  IOW, their eBallast closely mimics the output frequency of mains power, i.e. 50-60Hz. 

 

If you look at the write up on CMH Ballast’s on the Advance site, they quote:

 

Important Warranty Note:

 

Ceramic Metal Halide Lamp Optimal Frequency is <174hz. The CDM860 was especially designed for 50/60hz sine wave In English CMH prefers  a 50,60hz Standard Magnetic Core or electronic ANSI RATED <174hz utilizing a low frequency square wave (LFSW) (which does not exist) and NOT for  High Frequency Ballasts (these Literally Rattle the lamps apart)  IE NO 100-200Khz High Frequency Ballasts as you will void your lamps warranty Please Read our Ballast Fact Page for allot more detailed why you only want the proper ballasts.

http://www.advancedtechlighting.com/edbfp.htm

 

So when I was speaking of eBallasts, I was referring to the High frequency units.

 

I found a very good low frequency eBallast called BADASS:

 

http://www.advancednutrients.com/hydroponics/products/baddass_ballasts_low_frequency/baddass_ballasts_low_frequency_product_information.php

 

That one’s ^^^ a beauty for the Philips 860W CMH, it has far more gear controlling the signal than Philip’s does, it operates at a lower frequency than theirs does, and more importantly, it produces are SQUARER signal wave than Philip’s does which assists in running the CMH’s better:

 

http://advancedtechlighting.com/cdmea860.htm

 

And I agree that the Lumen Maintenance Characteristics of a lamp must be taken well into account when deciding which way to go, no doubt about it.

 

Some more of my findings in the last day:

 

Here is the spectrum of the tropical (equatorial) Sun measured with the currently most advanced photonic measuring equipment there is, Dr Clarage is recognized as a world authority on light by the entire scientific and high-level Academic communities worldwide.

 

Dr. Michael Clarage - Understanding the Electric Sun Model:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnDaym3aJyw

 

I’ve attached a screenshot of the graph, along with the image of the superimposed graph I created depicting the output of the SolisTek 10K with the Full Nova placed very close to one and other in a room.

 

Now have another look at the following graphs:

 

http://www.venturelighting.com/LampsDataSheets/NaturalWhite/24999m.pdf

http://www.venturelighting.com/LampsDataSheets/NaturalWhite/95577.pdf

 

and here, in a 320W version, Super Pulse Start and Long Life:

 

http://www.venturelighting.com/LampsDataSheets/NaturalWhite/95320m.pdf

 

Now to make a true comparison of the signal output of the 315 with the 320, we look at the Lumens per Watt value of each lamp.

 

315w = 115lm/w

320w = 67lm/w

 

So the Relative Energy output of the 320Wer is out by a factor of 0.6608 when compared to the 315W (115/67=0.6608).

 

That means that once we have adjusted the Horizontal axis of both graph to be equal to one and other, we must then DIVIDE (reduce) the vertical axis of the 320Wer by a factor of 0.6608 to compare the TRUE real life outputs of one and other.  I have done it as an example, per the 3rd attachment below to exacting proportions using the right software.

 

As we see, the 320 watter, although not a true CMH, can still produce more spectrum than the 315.  I’d be very surprised if anyone willing to try a grow with it would end up being disappointed.

 

All I can say is that Philips once again is producing some really nice lamps for the game.

Edited May 31, 2014 by FrankWills

[Freeo]

Hi Guys,

 

Seen few pages back about just building your own fixture using the Philips in house transformer/ ballast a lamp connection converter and the globe into say an adjuster wing.

 

What do you need to do add a 240 plug outlet to the transformer to have power and hook it up as per usual or is there more involved. Sorry first post and probably a noob question but new here and setting up first time and my research has lead me to this thread and im trying to avoid the $1000 set up costs per lamp. And if I can do this for under $500 a pop

 through Australian lighting distributors that would be gold.

[FrankWills]

Someone suggest to me that he would do it as follows:

 

 

One COMBO pack here:

 

http://advancedtechlighting.com/cdmmw.htm

 

Contains:

 

1 x CDM315/U/O/4K ED37 (same spectrum and power as the CDM-TMW Elite 315W/930 1CT but with a Mogul base)

 

and

 

1 x Philip’s Ballast IZTMH-210315-R-LF

 

$220 USD = $240 AUD includes shipping.

 

Can add 1 x CDM330/U/O/4K EA Allstart  (has the original spectrum IMO superior to the  CDM-TMW Elite 315W/930 1CT  sold here and OS, but with a Mogul base)

http://advancedtechlighting.com/cdmallstart.htm

 

$78 USD = $84 AUD

 

All items bundle shipped, total cost: $ 331USD = $355.80 AUD

 

Can add:

 

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/9-1-x-7-3-x-3-9-Blue-Metal-Enclosure-Project-Case-DIY-Junction-Box-/390850480754?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item5b00810a72

 

1 of:

 

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Power-Cable-Three-Pin-2-9M-long-10A-240V-3g-1-00mm2-/170959439361?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item27cdfa0601

 

Either one of these two as needed:

 

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Cable-Grip-Grommets-for-7-4mm-8-2mm-Cable-Pkt-10-Part-No-SRC610-/131172141238?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item1e8a7808b6

 

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Cable-Grip-Grommets-for-6-2mm-7-4mm-Cable-Pkt-10-Part-No-SRC510-/310937227476?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item48654d90d4

 

 

1 of:

 

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Rectangle-Shaped-Panel-Mount-ON-OFF-Push-Button-Switch-AC-380V-Volt-2KW-/301194670151?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item462099f047

 

 

1 of:

 

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/5-x-Dash-Panel-Mount-Screw-Cap-Fuse-Holder-Case-for-Glass-Tube-Fuses-6x30mm-15A-/190697055729?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item2c666e25f1

 

and I’d go a 5A instant blow fuse in it.

 

 

1 of these (tap power off the fuse holder, run parallel:

 

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/220VAC-240VAC-Aluminum-Cooling-Fan-80-x-80-x-25mm-/181424615913?pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item2a3dbff1e9

 

1 of:

 

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/80mm-8cm-Aluminum-Dustproof-Guard-Filter-Grill-for-PC-Case-Cooler-Fan-/290642164834?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43ab9f7c62

 

TOTAL: $75.41

 

Mark and drill a lattice of 5mm holes on the opposite side of the fan, and a large hole allowing access to the dimmer hole on the unit.

 

And 1 of:

$40.00

 

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/5-air-cool-vent-Hydroponic-HPS-MH-Grow-Light-reflector-95-aluminium-lamp-cord-/251510260050?pt=AU_Seed_Starting_Hydroponics&hash=item3a8f2e0152

 

1 of:

$8.14

 

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Extractor-Fan-ducting-Reducer-PVC-150-125-mm-6-5-inch-/390692352775?_trksid=p2054897.l5660

 

1of:

$50.00 delivered

 

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/150mm-6-INLINE-EXHAUST-FAN-VENTIALTION-AIR-TRANSFER-KIT-SUPPLY-FAN-BATHROOM-FAN-/291140106368?pt=AU_Seed_Starting_Hydroponics&hash=item43c94d7880

 

1 of:

Around $20 inc postage

 

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/6-150MM-X-5M-ALUMINIUM-SILVER-DUCTING-FAN-DUCT-/151143315993?pt=AU_Seed_Starting_Hydroponics&hash=item2330d7fa19

 

 

Total cost for complete unit - 2 lamps, ballast, houseing for ballast and parts, hood and all connecting parts:  $549.35

 

Done, neat and professionally.

 

 

Can't remember who it was that suggested it to me, but I'm not suggesting it to anyone.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZUVd9NMM_k

 

Edited May 31, 2014 by FrankWills

[Freeo]

I don't know how anyone can say anything is superior to the  315W/930 when the globes have only just finished their first runs. I know someone using them and hearing the results people are getting 1.5+ grams per watt. If these get close to a pound per globe they will be a hps killer not a plasma killer.  For most people halving their electricity bill will be the biggest benefit.

 

But all that seems like a lot of effort to put in a light if I was wiring up an led which should be pretty much exactly the same I wouldn't go to that much effort ill get an electrician mate to take a look but that seems like a bit of overkill. It would be easier and cheaper just to order in the cheap Chinese ballasts considering al the extra components being used and would work out cheaper.

 

There's another company that's spelt bersn that does ballasts for them which id say will be fairly cheap.

[forgetiwashere]

hey freeo dont get me wrong i do absolutely love my 315w but if your just kicking off in the growing game there really is nothing wrong with just grabbing a cheap magnetic ballast and a HPS lamp and having a go. i grew like that for years and had tons of great harvests. it will get you in the game and you can see if it is for you. remember not everyone that starts growing continues. it can be a frustrating hobby at times, it can be time consuming and risky. it puts stress on relationships and all sorts of other factors. i have seen tons of people go all out and spend thousands of dollars on grow set ups that are now just packed away in sheds collecting dust. start cheap and feel it out. when learning the guitar you dont just go straight out and buy a fender if you know what i mean.

[Naycha]

Went back through 5 pages couldn't find a pic or any grow info, gave up.

 

Hope the grow went/is going well.

 

Naycha

[T.WilyRR.]

Waiting for substanciated yield comparisons on these globes. Only real interest in this thread is the yield report which could be telling or not...

 

Tidy grow though

Edited June 1, 2014 by T.WilyRR.

[pegz]

I'm fairly certain HPS is still unbeaten as far as pure yield goes, HPS = big stretch + big buds. ( Though I am curious to see what kind of yield FIWH gets this grow.)

 

 

I don't know how anyone can say anything is superior to the  315W/930 when the globes have only just finished their first runs. I know someone using them and hearing the results people are getting 1.5+ grams per watt. If these get close to a pound per globe they will be a hps killer not a plasma killer.  For most people halving their electricity bill will be the biggest benefit.

 

Sure you do and I know a man who got a kilo from an auto grown under candle light.

 

 

Went back through 5 pages couldn't find a pic or any grow info, gave up.

 

Hope the grow went/is going well.

 

Naycha

 

The last few pages have been a lot of technical mumbojumbo and copy'n'paste for which I blame Phillips. Phillips did a Intel on us and kept changing the socket, specs, etc and hence some Internet detective work is/was needed in regards to sourcing affordable and available CDM/CMH equipment.

 

 

 

 

[Freeo]

I haven't grown myself or you can say I have because I have been helping a mate out for a couple of years only thing that has stopped my until now is not having a place to do it. I know a couple of people who have this globe and are saying it is killing it and worth the 1300 for the d Papillion. But its still a lot for a first setup but if I was to go down the road of a chinese ballast or the Philips transformer.

 

Ive already been given some gear I have more ballasts then I know what to do with 6 solistek matrixs but I want to halve the electricity usage with these one of two goals. And these from what I have heard have way better resin production and grams for watt not sure if yield is where it needs to be but if I run 3 of these guys ill still be in front on electricity but heat will be right down and much nicer for my babys.

 

Running these globes has to create a better environment especially in summer.

 

I already know these can be used way under the 1200-1300 the d Papillion is going for im guessing around 400 bucks a pop with the globe.

Edited June 1, 2014 by Freeo