Always male?

[eexpee]

My best plant that I just went to check on this afternoon turns out to be a male...

There were about 4 or 5 colas showing male sacs so I cut em off and got rid of them.

None of the other branches are showing male buds...yet

In a hope not to destroy my good plant I left it weakly hoping it could still go female. Is that possible or am I hanging on false hope?

I thought I read about cutting all the branches back and it re-growing back as fem before?

 

Thanx.

[blackheartedprofit]

get rid of it mate, it's a lost cause, bummer

[WantDaChronic]

while you might be able to stress the plants into going hermie so it grows female buds, the fact of the matter is the plant is still a male and should be removed from the grow area unless you want to produce seeds

[gouger]

A male will always be a male.

Stress will not create an hermaphrodite. At least not this generation.

There is only one way to make a male useful. However this takes a skill and knowledge of many years experience.

The technique is quite simple but isn't easy.

 

The simple: graft female buds onto it and remove all male buds under these. keep removing any male buds that come back. Allow the male plant to now be a female.

the not so easy ? Why don't you have a go at it before you call me back and show me where the plant is and I'll fix it for you.

Edited February 3, 2008 by gouger

[WantDaChronic]

i had a ducks offspring (ducksfoot x blueberry) male that went hermie after cutting it down heaps and it stayed a mostly female hermie at that its the only time i have seen it happen, but none the less it shows that it is possible.

 

as for grafting, it can work, but its much easier to just start over again and get yourself a proven female...dont believe me? run a new batch of seeds and then try and do some grafting at the same time, i bet you'll come to the same conclusion as me

[gouger]

Depends on the time of year it is done.

 

A single female bud grafted onto a male plant in spring/early summer, will completely replace all of the potential the plant would have had as a male and moreso. I have changed males and still received more than 1.5 kilo of female buds, without seeing a single male flower after grafting was done.

 

If done in late summer to Autumn you will be lucky if it makes a six inch bud.. really lucky. However a six inch bud dripping with resin is far better than a kilo of brackish male leaf. However .. every single female bud you put on a plant which is large in late summer.. will make a bud.. it does not matter how big if there are enough of them.

 

^ This is outdoors.

 

 

 

Done indoors there is no problem because this will be able to be controlled, daylength and temperatures are at your fingertips. There is no better way to do grafting than under complete control.

 

 

All that needs to be done is that you need to have sexed your plants as early on as you can. You also would be wise to select the nicest quality females for the job. No point in grafting a weedy unknown .. better to have known quality. This can be done by sensing the quality with your nose. Is even more assured if you have been growing through the winter(outdoors) and thus have known quality female grafting material.

 

Tools needed?

•A very very sharp knife.. best to use a dedicated budding knife or barber's razor but an ordinary pocket knife will do if extremely (razor)sharp. Some plants can be grafted with a saw but not our special plants.

•A roll of budding tape.. $2 at your local garden centre.

•Female material and male plants to graft onto.

That's it: I have grafted males on the 1st of June when the minimum temp was yes.. -3ºC but don't expect a lot to happen until spring(if the July black frosts don't wipe it out)

 

The technique? Well it is merely a slice or two and a bandage job.. Most important is to reduce photosythetic material on the grafting material but not toally. ie: cut the leaf down to one third but leave some leaf to keep it working. Insert the bud you cut of the female like so: http://www.agnet.org/images/library/pt2004025f4.jpg and carefully, tightly wrap the tape around the trunk.. leaving only the bud itself out. There will also be the fan leaf next to the bud.. which you trimmed to one third before grafting to the male.. Leave this out also but it does not matter if you also tie the leaf petiole(stem) under the tape if this helps you to tie this slippery little bugger to the male. Care should be taken to make all cuts the same, same angles as this will increase likelyhood of strike. You can read these images but imagine that you may also take your bud from the side of the plant without cutting the main branch. http://www.agnet.org/library/pt/2004025/

You only need one lateral bud off lower down on the female stem but the process can also be done with tips. The next big problem is that before and after grafting, the water supply must not waver. The graft will die in the sun in ten minutes if there is no sap flow in the plant.

If it works, it will be standing up and wanting to grow the next day but only if the plants roots are wet ~ saturated.

Obviously full sun in a bush plot on a 40ºC day is not the best place or time to do this.

However if the graft works.. you'll know quickly enough to repeat the experiment until you succeed. As soon as you see that the female bud is away, approx a week.. you will already have been wanting to remove any other male parts.. use the same knife.. cut the male buds out at the junction of fan leaf and stem.. with a lateral and vertical cut take the wedge out.. leave the leaf.. practise will help you get this correct. Treat male branches the exact same way.. and when you do.. if you are good enough, you can replace every single one with a bud from a different type of female at each male leaf node as long as you leave the fan leaf intact.. Thus giving you:

Skunk , bubblegum, juicyfruit, Durban.. any other variety you care to name that you have material to work with .. all on the same male rootstock.

 

I never allow males to flower unless I have decided that they are the right male.. If I cannot get a graft to grow on a male before January. I don't bother again until March-May and the only reason I will do it at that time is to spread a variety I prefer to have more of.

There is no day of the year when my plot has nil plants. I sent four seeds to a friend and today he pulled two males. I would have grafted as many female buds taken from positions on the female that would otherwise atrophy due to lack of light.. move them to the male and give them some light and you will not be wasting anything but better still you will gain a lot. On any female unless your lighting system directs light to the leaf surfaces and buds from every angle.. There will always be buds that do bugger all. Wasted bummed out bottom buds .. why not put them on the top of a male in the light?

 

The only indoors stuff I do is keep a few special cuttings alive, for this I use a phototron I was given. There is no way I would bother trying to grow plants indoors.

this shot taken in July(when min temps get as low as -7ºC http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v62/jonosterman/DSC00695skcuttings.jpg

I do vegetatively propogate top quality females.. either by cuttings or grafts.

Though I would graft them indoors If I had a trustworthy set up and have done them for others.

 

It should be obvious that shade is quite useful when grafting as are water trays.

Fertiliser should not be applied during the week before and after grafting.

 

This is half of a Male plant grafted in December with two different females. The other half was bigger however it was this variety I was photographing.. and I need a better digital camera. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v62/jonosterman/blockhead.jpg

 

i had a ducks offspring (ducksfoot x blueberry) male that went hermie after cutting it down heaps and it stayed a mostly female hermie at that its the only time i have seen it happen, but none the less it shows that it is possible.

 

as for grafting, it can work, but its much easier to just start over again and get yourself a proven female...dont believe me? run a new batch of seeds and then try and do some grafting at the same time, i bet you'll come to the same conclusion as me

 

Now for Hermaphrodites:

Above i said stress will not create an hermaphrodite in this generation.. Let me try to explain:

Toss your seed away if you ever get any hermaphrodites.. or .. start planting your plants in sunny spots.

Stress such as too much shade or cutting can actually force females to produce the odd male raceme or even just the odd flower will occur if the plants are stressing and there are no males around. they will keep doing this once started until the plant dies.. This I repeat is not an hermaphrodite.. it is a female under stress... if she makes seed toss the seed away. Because these will be hermaphrodites and will always be a pain the neck.

 

Females are capable of ensuring the survival of the species. What I was referring to is that if your conditions are perfect.. and you still get hermaphrodites then your seed has been buggered by previous years of growing and using the same species in temperate climates and shady conditions. Always introduce new seed new strains.. Only use selected males for pollination.. ever. Do not sow seed from hermaphrodites.

Do not believe people who tell you that the seed is guaranteed female.

Nor will your own seed be the same as that which you bought from a quality supplier, grew yourself pollinated from males which came from the same batch and then replanted that seed.. Some may come close but most will vary further.

 

If you ever do get a male you like.. keep taking cuttings of it. Because it will be the best male you get for the next ten thousand seeds you plant. Only allow it to flower when you want and keep it secluded by walls well away from females while flowering or accidents may occur.

Edited February 19, 2008 by gouger

[67Special]

Thanks for directing us back to this gouger.

 

I do remember reading those posts now

 

Does the female part for the graft have to be bud? or could it be just a cutting from a female plant?

 

And how mature does the male root stock need to be for successful grafting?

 

Also, is there any real advantage of grafting onto males? ..other than making use of plants that would otherwise have been destroyed.

 

I'm keen to give this a go. I've also been meaning to get around to trying air-layering with some of the lychee trees we have growing here.. someday

 

[MongyMan]

A male will always be a male.

Stress will not create an hermaphrodite.

 

I agree gouger. Not so sure about the grafting onto males idea though Think I'll leave that one to you.

 

Over the years I've done alot of experimenting and this is the theory I've come up with on the whole 'hermie' subject.

 

If you want buds with no seed, it doesn't matter whether a plant is a genetic hermaphrodite or a sex reversed plant. The result is the same, seeds. Unfortunatly this has led to both sex reversed plants and genetic hermaphrodites being lumped under the one title 'Hermies'. This is technicaly incorrect and if on the other hand you are wanting to breed seeds then it is important to understand the difference.

 

A true genetic hermaphrodite or 'Hermie' will grow true male, true female and often also hermaphrodite flowers of either sex on the same plant. Some of these plants have multiple sets of chromosomes which can create all kinds of weird plants. Some that start out male and turn female or visa versa, others that have different branches that are either male or female and sometimes ones that even change sex back and forward throughout the flower cycle. If you want to breed seeds that are either male or female, these plants are next to usless. KILL THEM . All other true genetic hermies, and remember this is only my theory, have what I call the Z chromosome replacing the normal X or Y chromosome. Unlike multi-chromosome plants, these grow in a fairly uniform way. Plants that grow prodominatly female flowers have a ZX combination, predominatly male flowers a ZY combination and those that are half half, a ZZ combination of chromosomes. The Z chromosome being either hermaphrodite itself or its gene dominance is dependant on the X or Y it is coupled to. Alot of wild strains and some hemp strains are predominatly genetic hermies. It is possible to breed seeds that are either male or female from these plants but that is a topic in itself.

 

Sex reversed plants are plants that geneticaly are true males or true females. True genetic males have an X and a Y chromosome and true genetic females have two X chromasomes that determine sex. One chromosome from each parent. True genetic females can't grow true male flowers and a true genetic male can't grow true female flowers. If they do they are a genetic hermie, not sex reversed. When you cross true male pollen, which is either X or Y with a true female that can only be X, you get either true males XY or true females XX, normally in a 50/50 ratio. Under stress, male and female cannabis plants can both 'sex reverse' and grow hermaphrodite flowers. This doesn't make them 'hermies' as only the flowers are hermaphrodite, not the whole plant, they are 'sex reversed' plants. The genes respossible for this ability are different genes to the sex genes and can be bred out of a strain. A female hermaphrodite flower has male stamen instead of white hairs sticking out of the seed bract. they are often called bannana flowers due to their appearance and males have the usual balls but with white hairs sticking out like in your pictures.

 

If you cross pollen from a sex reversed female plant, which can only carry an X chromosome, to itself or another true female, all resulting seed will be XX and therefore female. Pollen from a sex reversed male is still X or Y which makes no difference if you cross to a female plant but if you cross to itself or another sex reversed male you will end up with XX (fem), XY (male) and YY (also male) seeds as the hermie flowers are geneticaly still male with either an X or Y chromosome. It is often easier to isolate or identify genes in the offspring of these plants than it is with female plants. It is obviously important to correctly identify which plants are YY males as breeding from these will result in 100% male seeds. Normaly it's alot harder to get seed from a sex reversed male than it is a female as most hermaphrodite male flowers seem to be sterile but it can be done.

 

Peace MongyMan

[gouger]

Thanks for directing us back to this gouger.

 

I do remember reading those posts now

 

Does the female part for the graft have to be bud? or could it be just a cutting from a female plant?

 

And how mature does the male root stock need to be for successful grafting?

 

Also, is there any real advantage of grafting onto males? ..other than making use of plants that would otherwise have been destroyed.

 

I'm keen to give this a go. I've also been meaning to get around to trying air-layering with some of the lychee trees we have growing here.. someday

 

 

Ok. Amongst other thingsm I am someone who could be called a horticulturist/propagationist, nurseryman. I know there are many here who are indeed the same but mainly with the one plant family.

So, terminology may need clarification. In propagation a bud is a bud.. a leaf is a leaf and a stem is a stem.

The bud's you may be thinking of would be a raceme or a head or a flower spike sortsa thing.. misconceptions.

 

A bud is the little bugger you can see down under at the leaf node. With green grafting of leafy annuals you must also leave vegetative materal on with the bud so as to continue photosynthesis. The drawing above does not depict leaves as I used a budding description for a fruit tree but one which shows the style of graft(there are many) that best suits side grafting of marijuana.

 

Yes it can also be a tip cutting from any female but this is placed into the tip of the male or rootstock plant, using a wedge shaped cut on the female and a Vee shaped cut on the rootstock. Again my description was for a side graft using a side bud from another plant. My side grafting/budding method is capable of providing multiple strain plants on the one rootstock. Also is capable of defeating the next step.. which is your plant turning to mush under the knife. Because the rootstock is stronger midway up the stem than it is at the tip.

This is especially important since when you tie the graft on.. you will not be able to tie onto soft material unless you are really really experienced. Tying the tape, string, rubberband, yellow ribbon you wish to use to hold the graft in place is another skill all of its own. This trick is not for those with the DT's.

You need a steady hand and confidence in your hands. You need to be able to see what you are doing. You need to be sitting comfortably for it can be quite a strain. I use plastic budding tape but you can use any of the above.. most grafting ever carried out was done using raffia or even the stripped bark off a branch of the rootstock.

 

Because I have grafted many millions of plants in many conditions, positions and plants of all sizes and types. I am therefore more capable than most, due merely to experience.

For this reason I can say.. The rootstock is mature enough to graft at the time your hands can complete the operation. Which basically means when it doesn't turn to mush in your fingers then it is ready for you to graft.

Grafting isn't for everyone. It looks simple and really is very much so but the thickness and strength of the rootstock may be required for the lesser experienced hands. Let me tell you that you can actually graft plants at the dicotyledon stage. If you have the tools to do so.

 

 

Any use for grafting males?

•stops the bastards from flowering!

•saves you growing the bugger to a seven pounder only to find it is male

•changes the crop you planted to all female which saves having to plant more again

•allows you to increase the mass of certain female types you would rather have more of

•and last in this particular list but not the least by a long shot. Grafting allows you the same propagational advantages you can get from making cuttings. However what it really does is give your cuttings instant roots. Thus If you have some Juicy Fruit or Bubblegum or Blockhead .. maybe some White Rhino but you only have a couple of seeds or plants of it.... are you getting the drift?

Most of us have a pile of crappy seeds or hermaphrodite seeds or suspect seeds we don't know what is which of.

These can be sown and the material from the good weed can be grafted on to what we will class as rootsocks because they could be male they could be female but you want all Adelaide Gold.

...................................................................................caught on yet?

 

 

and thanks muchly MongyMan for putting my layman speak into contextual genealogical reality.

Edited May 22, 2008 by gouger

[67Special]

yep!

 

..now that we've got the buds sorted from the buds

 

I didn't realise you were grafting onto all of the seedlings either.. but at last the penny has dropped