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Topicals, Edibles and roadside drug tests

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#1
billytheechidna

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Hi medical ozstoners, this a long post and not a simple question, but if you want to take time to read it, thanks in advance.

 

So, in this thread I was hoping to have a discussion about cannabis topicals (creams applied to the skin) edibles and, ahem…suppositories and how they may or may not show up on roadside drug tests used by Australian police (as distinct from smoked cannabis).

 

A bit of background to explain why I’m interested in this - I’ve never actually used cannabis myself in any form, but a while back I became curious about trying homemade topicals (like a coconut oil infusion) to see if they helped with chronic muscle pain, and as a general relaxant. So I started trying to find out everything I could and pretty soon the issue of drug tests came up. Many people say that topicals with THC aren’t psychoactive and won’t show on drug tests but others say they are or might – there just isn’t any solid research. I started to read anecdotal reports too about roadside drug tests here in Australia, including of how folks have tested positive many, many days after smoking, long after they were actually impaired. I was pretty alarmed by this, as I’m sure are many others, since losing my licence just isn’t an option. To be sure, I’ve had plenty of alcohol breath tests and never once been tested for drugs on the road, but all the same I need to be really, really confident that I would test clean if it did happen. (I’m not worried about urine and blood tests – I just don’t need to take these, but some people might in their workplace).

 

I wasn’t ready to give up on the idea, and curious besides, so I set about learning what I could about the parameters of saliva drug testing and the police regime here in Australia. In the process of finding out as much as I can about the current road drug testing regime and how it does or doesn’t work (and many of you would know that it is deeply flawed), I’ve found that there is actually very little research about how cannabis that is ingested or applied without being smoked is detected in saliva. Almost all the research and testing relates to cannabis that is smoked (which is after all how most people consume it). The current saliva tests seem to work primarily by detecting remnants of THC that remain in the oral cavity during smoking - and it may be these that can stick around for a long after the effects have worn off, potentially giving a positive result for a sober person. (This isn’t how the roadside tests are supposed to work – they’re supposed to show if you have been smoking very recently and therefore unfit to drive. But they are actually quite sensitive and especially if you are a regular smoker, you could have quite a bit of cannabis chemicals stored in your ‘oral mucosa’)

 

But…what if you had consumed cannabis extracts in another way, say eating it, swallowing a sealed capsule, rubbing it on your skin or using a suppository? (I presume injecting is a possibility, but I don’t think anyone outside a laboratory actually does that). I’ve tried to find out what I can, and although there is hardly any research it seems that strict blood to saliva transfer of THC may actually be quite low, possibly even undetectable by the current ‘Drugwipe’ tests, overly sensitive as they are.  This, I thought, was interesting…

 

Roadside testing.

Here’s what I understand currently happens in Victoria and NSW if you get pulled over or stopped at a booze/drug bus. I might be wrong in some details, so please correct me.

The test used first is the Securetec AG Drugwipe which you wipe on your tongue, and it shows a coloured line if positive. (There are different models that test for different numbers of drugs called 6S, 5S and Twinwipe, but with respect to thc they are all the same.) The latest Drugwipe brochure boasts that it can now detect THC in oral fluid at or above 5 nanograms per mL.  (Previously the cutoff point was 10 or 12ng). If you do test positive, they then double check your saliva sample in a Draeger 5000 drug test machine – this also has a cutoff point of 5ng/mL I believe.

 

I actually contacted Securetec AG and asked them about blood to saliva transfer and whether or not THC that was in the blood but hadn’t contacted the oral cavity could be detected by the Drugwipe tests. At first I got an answer to the effect that “if its in your system it’ll get into your saliva”; and then when I asked for more details or any studies that showed this I was basically told that they don’t share data like that with private busybodies. This could mean that its secret in-house research, or as I suspect that they also don’t know.

 

 

Studies

I tried to read all the published studies I could that were freely available on PubMed. There aren’t many that directly address the question of blood>saliva transfer and some were quite old. I’ve copied out a few salient quotes:

 

Schramm et al Drugs of Abuse in Saliva: A review Journal of Analytical Toxicology vol 16 Jan/Feb 1992

(20 and 16 are references to papers that I couldn’t get a free copy of, but if you read the original you can see the ref.list)

 

Radiolabelled ThC administered by intravenous injection cannot be detected in saliva (20). Therefore it seems that THC or its metabolites do not pass into saliva or lungs from the blood but rather are sequestered in the buccal cavity during smoking. In some cases cannabanoids may be detected in saliva for a longer time than in plasma (16) because it is sequestered in the mouth.

 

Milman et al, Oral Fluid and Plasma Cannabanoid Ratios after around the Clock Controlled Oral Delta 9 Tetrahydrocannabinol Administration, Clinical Chemistry 2011 Nov. 57(11)

In summary, our data demonstrate that THC detected in OF primarily reflects smoked cannabis, not oral administration…

 

(In this study they took regular smokers and gave them repeated doses of oral THC then measured their saliva and blood levels. They observed that Oral fluid levels were high before they started –possibly because the participants had smoked recently – but as the study went on, the oral fluid levels kept going down, to the point where they were almost zero, even though they still had high levels of THC in their blood.)

 

Huestis, M.  Human Cannabanoid Pharmacokinetics, Chem. Biodivers. 2007 Aug 4(6).

 

This one is all round interesting and talks about different administration routes and oral fluid testing.

 

Oral mucosa is exposed to high concentrations of THC during smoking, and serves as the source of THC found in oral fluid. Only minor amounts of drug and metabolites diffuse from the plasma into oral fluid. Following intravenous administration of radiolabeled THC, no radioactivity could be demonstrated in oral fluid. No measurable 11 OH THC or THC-COOH were found by GC/MS (detection limit 0.5 ng/mL) in oral fluid for 7days following cannabis smoking  (This suggests to me that these metabolites don’t pass from the blood to the saliva)

 

(I can’t resist sharing this quote too: Several different suppository formulations were evaluated in monkeys to determine the matrix that maximises bioavailability….That must have been an interesting day at the lab!)

 

 And lastly this study about edibles by the same author was in the news this year. http://www.jhunewsle...tify-marijuana/

 

I haven’t read it except for the summary on science news sites, but it is actually really relevant. They wanted to find out if edibles, which are becoming more popular in legal MM US states, will show up on roadside saliva tests. They tested the Draeger 5000 and another similar device that had cutoff detection levels of 5ng/mL  and 25ng/mL respectively. They took previous smokers (whose mouths may not have been 1000% clean anyway) and gave them each a 50.6mg brownie. As I said I’m not experienced at all but that seems a fairly good dose.

Well, they found that THC could be accurately detected as positive in saliva, but only if the machines were set to a cutoff level much lower, around 1-2ng/mL. This suggests to me that those volunteers could conceivably have driven through an Australian drug test with the Drugwipe/Draeger, and not tested positive, even with fairly high levels in their blood.

 

I would never advocate driving high or drunk  - I want my family to be safe on the roads too, - but what I’m beginning to suspect is that edibles or topicals may be the way to go if you want to responsibly consume, can allow enough time to sober up properly, and hope to test clear at the roadside in following days. Of course if you rub thc oil around in your mouth or eat brownies like the cookie monster you would surely leave residues in your mouth which would show up. I suppose your best bet would be to swallow neatly with a glass of water. (Or make like a lab monkey.)

 

If only the Drugwipe tests were available cheaply enough for responsible people to test themselves before driving, but unfortunately they run at around $70 each! Even the police pay around $40 per test.

 

That’s what I’ve got so far – does anyone else have any thoughts, experiences or expertise? Please let me know what you think.

  

Regards, BillyE


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#2
fookinel

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Unfortunately I'm not sure I'll be of much help, however, this topic is interesting so I'll at the very least ask a question or two and put forward some of my own thoughts.

 

So, the first question I have is what evidence do you have that the various drugs tests you mentioned (Securetec AG Drugwipe and Draeger 5000) actually test for THC and THC alone (in relation to testing for cannabis use, I'm not concerned about other drug use)?

 

The reason I ask is because I've been wondering what goes on with these roadside drug tests, particularly after reading stories about people claiming to get busted days or weeks after the last time they used cannabis. When I thought about it I only managed to come up with two possibilities (don't get me wrong, there may well be more but I've only managed to think of two).

 

The first would be that these tests are testing for THC and a heavy user has enough THC stored in fatty tissue that's slowly released back in to their bloodstream over time before somehow being transferred to their saliva in a sufficient quantity. Based on some of the research you've shown suggesting that THC is not readily transferred to the saliva then it seem unlikely this is the case.

 

The second would be if they test for THC-COOH, a non-psychoactive metabolite with a long half-life (I've seen it quoted as days). I would expect for a heavy user that has THC stored in fatty tissue, as the THC gets released back in to the bloodstream and metabolised in to 11-OH-THC (which is psychoactive) and the 11-OH-THC gets metabolised in to THC-COOH, if the THC-COOH is transferred to the saliva then this could also provide a positive result. In the information you provided (Schramm et al Drugs of Abuse in Saliva) they showed that THC and some metabolites were detected in saliva after smoking. By the same token, you've also shown research suggesting that the metabolites do not readily get transferred to the saliva, so who knows?

 

The interesting thing is that if they're actually testing for THC-COOH then I don't see how this could stand up in court if someone got busted based on those test results as THC-COOH is non-psychoactive.

 

So I guess my next question is, have you tried asking these companies exactly what compounds they test for and what the minimum concentration of those compounds are to get a positive result for cannabis?


Edited by fookinel, 06 May 2017 - 10:13 AM.

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#3
freddie

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Interesting topic. I don't know the answers but you might find this information from the Hemp Embassy interesting. It was from back in 2007. They tested using the same device the cops use. Note that the person who ate cannabis chocolate tested negative? No test on topicals to my knowledge.

http://hempembassy.n...-drugwipe-twin/

 

I have tried to get a simple answer as to how long you have to drive after your last cannabis use. Almost every article says something different. I choose not to drive stoned but I consume most nights. Am I ok to drive the next morning? Who knows.


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#4
billytheechidna

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Thanks guys for reading all of that and responding!

 

That study by the hemp embassy was really interesting, particularly as you say the hash chocolate subject who 'tested negative, despite the subject saying they were "off their tits"' They also noted that she was a 'heavy smoker' - and unless that means she was a heavy eater of hash chocolate, I'd have thought that might mean she had oral residues from previous days smoking. Who knows? I'd have thought too, that chocolate would coat the mouth - maybe something is going on with the fats in the chocolate?

 

Its exactly the kind of study I'd like to see only with non-smokers using edibles or topicals.    

 

fookinel - here's what I think I know about the tests, based on what the companies themselves say, and whats been reported in the press about police use.  Both of them are said to only test for 'active' THC, not THC COOH. Its a bit confusing because there are saliva and urine tests that you can buy to test yourself, or your employees, that do test for THC COOH. To their credit, I don't think the police want to penalise people for past cannabis use, which is why they specifically say they are not testing for metabolites only Delta 9 THC.

 

However, the latest securetec drugwipe brochure says that it tests for Delta 9 THC, and also 11 OH THC, which is as you say is psychoactive and formed in the liver. This surprised me and seems like it might be a new development or improvement they've made in the test. But just because the test can detect 11 OH THC doesn't mean that it will be sufficiently concentrated in saliva, if it doesn't transfer significantly from the blood in the first place. In other words, it could be a fancy but pointless improvement. I'm not sure.  

 

The cutoff points for both tests are said to be 5ng/mL (or 5ug per L which is the same thing) of oral fluid. So at that concentration or higher should register as positive, anything less as negative.

 

 In the information you provided (Schramm et al Drugs of Abuse in Saliva) they showed that THC and some metabolites were detected in saliva after smoking. By the same token, you've also shown research suggesting that the metabolites do not readily get transferred to the saliva, so who knows?

 

   I think that in these studies they were using more sensitive lab tests for oral fluid. So I think its all about the levels - if sufficiently small amounts of THC and metabolites transfer to saliva, the current roadside tests won't reach their cutoff level for a positive read for an edible/topical/suppository user. 

 

Cheers, glad some others find the topic interesting. 


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#5
cardrona

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Nice post ;)

The roadside tests are aimed at saliva because of dry mouth .....it is in a higher % after being smoked in what little saliva you have.

Thc is stored in fat through your body around your brain and in your nervous system and re released through your liver ...it is your liver that makes you react to drugs ,alcohol,cannabis,lsd whatever researchers have found that daily cannabis use is strongly associated with moderate to severe liver fibrosis.

Fibrosis is scarring of the liver, and is the most prevalent indicator of worsening liver disease.

In light of the damage regular cannabis use can inflict on the liver, this was noticed in association with alcoholics ...Marijuana Maintenance does not appear to be a good choice for those with chronic liver disease. While deciding between the lesser of two evils may point to alcohol as capable of causing more damage more quickly to liver cells than marijuana, neither substance is liver friendly. Making decisions about how to best manage chronic liver disease can be difficult and requires weighing many factors. Even though a handful of doctors may suggest marijuana to help kick a liver-harming drinking habit, keep searching for a better alternative that will help you achieve abstinence without causing additional injury to your liver.

​I know a fella that had this from to much smoking weed with tobacco out of a bong all the time for 20 years.

It will be in your system no matter how you have it like any other herb or supplement that is taken over a period of 3 weeks will bind with you ...

In the US they had this problem learn about active THC and non active THC

THC(A) vs. THC: the difference in non-active and active THC cannabinoids”
by on November 29, 2012 in HealthMedical MarijuanaScience
THC(A) vs. THC

THC is the main psychoactive constituent contained in the marijuana plant. While most of us have heard of THC, and know what it is, many people don’t know about its non-psychoactive pre-curser “acid form” called THC(A), also known as Tetrahydrocannabinolic acid (isn’t THC(A) a lot easier to say?).

What is THC(A)?

THC(A) is actually the bio-synthetic precursor to THC. What this means is, over time – and given the proper environmental conditions – THC(A) will actually convert into THC. This conversion takes place in a couple of different ways and is commonly referred to as decarboxylation, or “decarbing” your cannabis.

Properties of THC(A)

Before being converted to it;s psychoactive form, THC(A) still has many therapeutic benefits while being void of psycho-activity – such as aiding in sleep, inhibiting cancer cell growth, and suppressing muscle spasms – as you can see from the chart below.

Properties of THC

THC has many separate properties, once it has been converted from THC(A). It has been shown to reduce vomiting and nausea, relieve pain, stimulate the appetite, and also reduces muscle spasms.

cannabinoids-300x300.png

What most people don’t realize is, that cannabis actually contains very little THC in it’s natural plant form. As a matter of fact, upwards of 80-90% or so of the THC found in cannabis is actually in the form of THC(A) until it goes through a process known as decarboxylation. Since decarboxylation instantly takes place while being smoked, the differences in the THC(A)/THC levels – are not as important when dealing with marijuana that will be smoked.

Topical uses of marijuana

On the other hand, if you are using medical marijuana or an extract to make a topical application, then you will need to have a better understanding of the differences in THC(A) and THC, as well as an understanding of what decarboxylation is and how it is achieved.

When making medical marijuana preparations such as topicals, capsules, and other forms of medical marijuana that will not be heated past the decarboxylation threshold of 222 degrees Fahrenheit – it is important to know what THC(A) to THC ratio you need to achieve for the desired effects. Also important is knowing that by properly decarboxylating your marijuana, you can dial in the desired amounts of THC(A) and THC for a custom preparation that holds the benefits of both of these great cannabinoids.

For example: let’s say you want to make a topical that will be a good pain reliever, as well as having an ability to inhibit cancer-cell growth. In this case you would not want to fully “decarb” your starting material, since you would be removing the properties that inhibit cancer-cell growth. A full-decarb would change the THC(A) to THC with about 95%+ conversion rate.

If however, you were able to partially decarb your plant material before turning it onto a topical, you could dial in properties that would otherwise be lost. This would be very beneficial in adjusting the efficacy of products being used by patients with more than one condition or symptom.

With use of the above chart, as well as the information provided in the article I wrote called “decarboxylation“, you can begin to get a fuller-understanding of cannabinoids and how to use them to our advantage. By custom tuning our products to include not only different cannabinoids, but to also include different versions of the same cannabinoids we will be able to make recipes that will be perfect for almost any condition that medical marijuana is therapeutic for.

Custom decarboxylation processes for obtaining a custom ratio

By using custom ranges of temperatures and times to perform decarboxylation, you can fine tune the amount of THC(A) that is converted into THC for the perfect ratio or blend. This could be very beneficial in making products that have a broad-range of therapeutic benefits.

As we learn more about the inner-workings of one of the worlds oldest herbs (cannabis), we are coming to the conclusion that marijuana is in fact medicine, and there are many ways to use it that we just have not found yet. By tweaking, experimenting and studying this plant we will be able to find many more uses for it in the future.

Colorado 

Has just encountered all this

FAQs: Cannabis and Driving
 
 
¿Habla español? Haga clic aquí.

Q: How does marijuana affect my ability to drive?

 

A: You cannot judge your own level of impairment. Any amount of marijuana consumption puts you at risk of driving impaired.

 

 

Q: Is there a legal limit for marijuana impairment while operating a vehicle?

 

A: Colorado law specifies that drivers with five nanograms of active tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) in their whole blood can be prosecuted for driving under the influence (DUI). However, no matter the level of THC, law enforcement officers base arrests on observed impairment.

 

 

Q: What if I use marijuana medicinally?

 

A: If a substance has impaired your ability to operate a motor vehicle it is illegal for you to be driving, even if that substance is prescribed or legally acquired.

 

 

Q: Are there additional penalties for marijuana-impaired driving if there are children in the vehicle?

 

A: Additional charges for impaired drivers include child abuse if children are present in the vehicle.

 

 

Q: Is it legal to have marijuana or marijuana paraphernalia in the passenger cabin of the vehicle?

 

A: Colorado’s open container law makes it illegal to have marijuana in the passenger area of a vehicle if it is in an open container, container with a broken seal, or if there is evidence marijuana has been consumed. It is also illegal to consume marijuana on any public roadway.

 

 

Q: How can law enforcement determine if I am impaired by the use of marijuana?

 

A: Colorado Law Enforcement Officers are trained in the detection of impairment caused by drugs. Many Colorado Law Enforcement Officer have received advanced training in Advanced Roadside Impaired Driving Enforcement (ARIDE). Across the state of Colorado law enforcement agencies have specially trained Drug Recognition Experts (DRE) on staff that can detect impairment from a variety of substances.

 

 

Q: What if I refuse to take a blood test to detect THC?

 

A: Colorado revokes driving privileges for any individual who fails to cooperate with the chemical testing process requested by an officer during the investigation of an alcohol or drug-related DUI arrest. Any driver who refuses to take a blood test will immediately be considered a high-risk driver. Consequences include: mandatory ignition interlock for two years, and level two alcohol education and therapy classes as specified by law. These penalties are administrative, and are applied regardless of a criminal conviction.

 

 

Q: How do marijuana-impaired violations differ between the Colorado Division of Motor Vehicles and Colorado courts?

 

A: Like any other substance, marijuana-impaired infractions result in administrative and criminal sanctions. Click here for more information.

 

 

Q: Are there stricter penalties for those individuals who are arrested driving under the influence of a combination of marijuana and alcohol or other drugs?

 

A: The penalties are the same regardless of the substance, or combination of substances. However, when combining substances, there is a greater degree of impairment. This significantly increases the chances of crashes, penalties and charges.

 


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#6
billytheechidna

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Thanks cardrona, I hadn't though of dry mouth as a potential factor. 

 

I was thinking too with topicals (or other preparations for that matter) that you could use a mixture of decarbed and raw herb as well high CBD strains to get a rich variety of cannabanoids. 

 

Interesting that colorado set a blood limit of 5ng in whole blood - is that per mL or L? Anyway the very sensible thing, I think, is that they based arrests and blood tests on observed impairment, ie. not just testing randomly. Until the science of drug testing in relation to blood levels and actual impairment is nailed down, i think thats a more reasonable way to go. 

 

Cheers. 


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#7
cardrona

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Not sure if its ml or L
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#8
billytheechidna

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So I went looking for the answer - its 5ng per mL in blood - but in the same article there was also this photo and caption, with no direct link to the story. Weirdest thing I've seen in a long time: 

 

drivingwhilehigh_custom-edeb261b0dca5a14
Enlarge this image

Simulated marijuana smoke billows out of the windows of a car during a demonstration by the Colorado Department of Transportation.

David Zalubowski/AP

 

Thats a demonstration....by the Colorado Department of Transportation??? 'Simulated' marijuana smoke??!


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#9
Sir PsychoHashy

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lol  good to see Reefer Madness is still alive and well  lol


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cardrona

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Ha ha
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