cannabis extraction Stumbling blocks in the path to using medical cannabis

[fishwyfe]

My introduction in brief: I have been cannoned into the marijuana debate by the abject failure of modern medicine to meet the needs of a couple of elderly relatives.

 

I can see how the legislation allowing limited access to medical marijuana is a sham, purporting to do one thing while at the same time building in restrictions that as near as anything make sure nothing changes.

 

I don't know who initiated the push for a more liberal legislation, but the result must be disappointing. Perhaps single-purpose legislation to do just one thing: legalise the import and sale of low THC content cannabis extract should have been the goal. Just imagine the advances that could potentially ensue! Really, what possible opposition could there be to selling a non-addictive, non-psychoactive healthy plant oil.

 

On the topic of making your own extract, I think for most city dwellers this just isn't going to be practical. Let's take one step: evaporating the solvent after extracting the oils. If you set up a rice cooker in the draught of a fan, aren't all your neighbours going to know something's cooking at your house, and it's not dinner!!

 

Just someone walking past on the footpath outside will smell weed, surely? Not to mention the dog in the back of a police van 2 streets away!

 

I hope to stay around and learn a lot from you experts.

[Sir PsychoHashy]

For urban patients, containing the smell of flowering plants whilst growing is the bigger issue, but can be done adequately with a decent carbon filter and due diligence on construction and maintenance. 

 

As for making ISO oil at least, it's the smell of alcohol which is the strong aroma during processing, and done with good ventilation that disperses fairly quickly.  Safety is much more important than aroma stealth, particularly when using butane but also ISO.

 

I agree that the legislation is complete bullshit in terms of patient outcomes, but unfortunately if we want canna for medicinal use in Aus, we still basically are stuck with growing and processing our own if we want a reliable supply of known standards.  If you are paranoid about the smells involved with making concentrates, maybe you could set up a tent with a CF and extraction and process in there, or use an extraction fan to suck away the fumes and blow out through a CF????

 

[fishwyfe]

I am preparing a friend to request a medical marijuana prescription from his cancer specialist, in Brisbane. (This is new to me, so I can but do my best.) He understands that if he's to be successful with his request he will have to be very determined, that his life depends on the outcome. Doctors are not ones to willingly venture outside established regimens, and the Office of Drug Control likes it that way!

 

I think the very best reaction he can hope for is that the doctor says he understands the request, is sympathetic and all that, but that it's a new area to him and asks what the patient has in mind. I am trying to prepare him a good answer in advance because the opportunity may never arise again.

 

I like the look of this Canadian extract: https://www.tilray.ca/en/products/tilray-products/warlock-cbd/

Cannabinoid Content

 

THC: 0.9%

THCA: 11.4%

Total THC: 12.3%

Active THC: 11.0%

 

CBD: 0.4%

CBDA: 12.6%

Total CBD: 13.0%

Active CBD: 11.4%

 

It offers high CBD content, and with a balanced THC:CBD ratio approximately 1:1

 

I think going for 1:1 should avoid controversey, its justification being that some states are already funding clinical studies using 1:1 products sourced from Canada or The Netherlands, studies involving paliative care patients.

 

The oncologist should be able to justify this patient as a paliative care patient, even though we are hoping for a halt to the disease's progression, not merely an easeful end.

 

What I specifically want to ask this forum about is the THC / THCA content, such a high proportion being THCA. Is it unusual for a product like this to have apparently escaped heating during extraction? As an example of medical marijuana this would seem ideal in that it offers a strong cancer-fighting punch but by not being decarboxylated it minimises psychotropic side-effects, thus allowing higher doses to be taken?

 

I don't know how it is in other states, but Qld places the onus on the prescribing physician to specify the proposed product and to name a supplier in Canada or The Netherlands. That's why I think patients need to be forearmed by having specific medication details written on paper ready to hand to their specialist, otherwise I can see hapless patients being too easily fobbed off until their next appointment a few months off! https://www.health.qld.gov.au/public-health/topics/medicinal-cannabis/clinicians/prescribing#product

 

Thanks for reading.

 

Thanks even more for replying.

Edited February 1, 2017 by fishwyfe

[fishwyfe]

I am wondering how an individual would go about determining the dosage of CBD he is comfortable with. How would he recognize that he has reached his tolerance? I have in mind, for instance, someone with a type of cancer where researchers have shown that CBD oil can be very effective, so the goal is to quickly titrate up to a high dose.

 

By way of comparison, determining your optimal dose for a THC-based therapy seems relatively straightforward, based on its observed psychtropic effects. https://www.marijuanaoil.com.au/blog/cannabis-oil-dosing

 

But in the absence of the psychoactive component, how can an individual judge how many mg of CBD he can comfortably take in? Presumably, in the case of cancer treatments, a higher dose of CBD is going to be more effective.

 

Thanks.

[Sir PsychoHashy]

I'm afraid you might be barking up the wrong tree if you're hoping that your friend can get RSO treatment prescribed and supplied in Australia.  My understanding is that only products that have undergone proper medical trials will be able to be prescribed, and hash oil ingestion for cancer is basically only anecdotal evidence at this stage, and as big Pharma are the main players in choosing what to trial my guess is that proper trials of something anyone can make at home are going to be suppressed as much as possible.  Most likely the best your friend can hope for is Sativex, or maybe a piece of paper telling the police to have compassion if caught in possession, and the only thing they will be looking to treat is pain and nausea associated with chemo.  This is one of those times I'd be happy if someone told me I am wrong.

 

Sounds like there's a lot of anecdotal stories, and varying theories, out there about THC, CBD, and ratios for cancer treatment, so good luck finding out what the best route is.  I don't know, but would likely err on the side of something with a good chunk of both.  Best bet would be to grow a decent strength indica dom with a good chunk of CBD, and make your own oil if that's the treatment your friend wants.  If you wait around for the government and the medical profession to get something decent and workable happening with med canna it will be way too late.

[merl1n]

Hey Fishwyfe,

The info given above by Sir PsychoHashy is correct, unfortunately. Our Liberal (what a joke) govt have changed the rules BUT only to support their mates in big pharma and not to support medical users. As a medi user myself I have made enquires only to be told "...NO..." or "...It's not an approved treatment..." or "...I know nothing about it..." or "...if you want you can try, but I can't give authorization..."

As SPH says, even if after all the trials take place, access will only be given for pharma concoctions ie Sativex and not whole plant therapies. By the time the trials and all the regulations are put in place I believe most of the people looking for alternatives will be long gone.

As for dosages, this is a HUGE stumbling block. There is some evidence showing that there needs to be an interaction between THC and CBD, but it is the THC which gives the 'high'. For some 'newbies' to canna it takes very little THC for them to become overwhelmed by the 'stoned' feeling and it can be a very fine line between therapeutical benefit and an overwhelming feeling of intoxication. For those of us that are a bit more conditioned this has less of an impact.

I'd also like to point out that although there is a large amount of discussion regarding CBD and THC, there are many other cannabinoids and terpines with in canna and the interaction between these does not seem to be discussed. I believe that these interactions are just as important and beneficial but as these are whole plant therapies the govt are not investigating this as they are only interested in supporting BIG pharma (BIG $$$) and not the actual patients. It's all about the sacred $$$

 

Merl1n

[fishwyfe]

The provisions under Qld Health seem reasonably broad:

 

https://www.health.qld.gov.au/public-health/topics/medicinal-cannabis/products

Doctors can apply to prescribe both plant-based products and synthetic products. When used for a therapeutic purpose, these forms would be considered:

tinctures: plant material infused in oil or alcohol

vapour: dried plant material or concentrated cannabis extract is heated in a vapouriser

capsules or sprays: pharmaceutical products such as nabilone and nabiximols.

 

Restrictions

Patients will not be approved to smoke cannabis, as this exposes them to many of the same health risks as smoking regular cigarettes.[...]

 

It goes on to say that Currently, legal medicinal cannabis products are not made in Australia. These must be imported from overseas, usually from either Canada or the Netherlands.

 

I'm wondering is our quarantine service okay with dried marijuana bud and leaf being brought in?

 

If the dried plant can be prescribed for use in a vapouriser, then it would seem it could be prescribed for patients to make their own tinctures and cannabutter?

[fishwyfe]

I'm afraid you might be barking up the wrong tree if you're hoping that your friend can get RSO treatment prescribed and supplied in Australia.

I didn't spell it out, but I'm hoping he can get MMJ prescribed under the "palliative care" provisions. NSW has clinical tests under way using MMJ in palliative care, and these using THC:CBD combo, so you could say the precedent is already established...and we just want to follow along. Should the palliative care treatment push him into remission, well, that would be a happy co-incidence.

 

Clinical trials in three areas were announced in December 2014 to explore the use of cannabis and cannabis products in providing relief for:

 

1. Children with severe, drug-resistant epilepsy, through a partnership with the Sydney Children’s Hospitals Network

2. Adult palliative care patients, focusing on quality of life, particularly appetite and appetite-related symptoms

3. Adults with chemotherapy-induced nausea and vomiting, where standard treatment is ineffective.

 

It would be callous indeed were the oncologist to declare that this patient is not yet ill enough to be classified under palliative care, and that we should wait a few more months and he'll reconsider it!

 

If you wait around for the government and the medical profession to get something decent and workable happening with med canna it will be way too late.

My sentiments exactly. However, I also think that if it is left up to the patient and their spouse, many will have no idea where to turn, so will resign themselves to the disease's steady progression in typical quiet desperation of the terminally ill.

 

https://www.health.qld.gov.au/public-health/topics/medicinal-cannabis/clinicians/prescribing#product

Current products being used in Australia:

Sativex is listed as an approved medicine on the Australian Register of Therapeutic Goods, however needs to be imported from overseas. Sativex is a Schedule 8 medicine and is a plant-derived product.

NSW trials for chemotherapy induced nausea and vomiting are using a THC:CBD combination medicinal cannabis product imported from Tilray in Canada.

NSW trials for palliative care patients are using a THC:CBD combination called Bedrodiol imported from the Netherlands, a THC:CBD combination product imported from Tilray in Canada, and Nabilone a synthetic cannabinoid available overseas. These products are all Schedule 8 from 1 November 2016.

[Sugar]

Hi Fish, I'm going to make med capsules using the bio bomb recipe at a ratio of 1:20 (eg 1 part extracted canna oil to 20 parts carrier oil) I'm also going to make rec capsules using coconut oil and without the lecithin that is added to the bio-bombs. I believe different carrier oils are used depending on what cancer is to be treated and whether the CO bypasses the liver or not.

This link to Sweet Sue's recipe and her work on medical cannabis oil study may help: https://www.420magazine.com/forums/cannabis-oil/273147-sweetsues-cannabis-oil-study-hall-9.html

Wishing you all the best.

[Sugar]

Hi Fish, I'm going to make med capsules using the bio bomb recipe at a ratio of 1:20 (eg 1 part extracted canna oil to 20 parts carrier oil) I'm also going to make rec capsules using coconut oil and without the lecithin that is added to the bio-bombs. I believe different carrier oils are used depending on what cancer is to be treated and whether the CO bypasses the liver or not.

This link to Sweet Sue's recipe and her work on medical cannabis oil study may help: https://www.420magazine.com/forums/cannabis-oil/273147-sweetsues-cannabis-oil-study-hall-9.html

Wishing you all the best.

 

 

Well fish and all interested parties, I've done it, made my first oil batch of cannabis ISO oil and mixed with coconut oil and lecithin oil to make capsules

 

My spritely but achy 85 year old step father (2 hip replacements and copd) is now the recipient of some cannabis oil caps for sleeping and pain!... he's yet to get back to me with how it's gone, he's not going to start it until next saturday when he has a couple of non driving days ahead (I couldn't believe he accepted my offer as he has previously voiced his opposition to cannabis) ... and now me and a friend have started self treating ourselves for various conditions such as emotional and mental issues, sleeplessness, sadness, depression, anxiety, eating disorders, systemic inflammation and respiratory problems (such as copd) and for pain.

 

Here's hoping to a good quality of life!

[Ford Fairlane]

nice one sugar. what is the dosage like for that ratio?