Gone to Pot

[mull-ray]

What do you mean schizophrenia risk rates? dude your getting mislead by proganda.

 

This obsession by the media and certain scientific communitities on the fact that teenagers who smoke pot have somewhat higher rates of schizophrenia is misguided.

 

It is well known schizophrenics are massively drug seeking- they abuse ALL known psychotropic substances at rates extradinarily higher than the normal population. For example heroin abuse in schizophrenics is around 800% higher than the normal population, and around 80%-90% of people with schizophrenia are smokers- typically very heavy smokers.

 

Indeed drugs like methamphamine cause chronic elevations in the levels of dopamine in the brain- the same thing that occurs naturally in schizophrenia- and this is known to be associated with compulsive drug seeking behaviour.

 

Various reputable studies have tried to look at the incidence of marijuana smoking in a community, and the incidence of schizophrenia and have FAILED to find a link between psychosis and pot. Indeed schizophrenia is quite stable in most communities at around 1% of the population- doesn't matter how much pot people are smoking in those communities:

 

Here is a bit of info about the Keele study- a very important study.. Unfortunately I don't have direct link at the moment:

 

http://ukcia.org/wordpress/?p=76

 

“This study does not therefore support the … link between cannabis use and incidence of psychotic disorders,” the study concludes, adding “This concurs with other reports indicating that increases in population cannabis use have not been followed by increases in psychotic incidence.”

 

This study was of OVER 600,000 medical records- it was a MASSIVE study, and blows out of the water the idea that marijuana is a CAUSE of schizophrenia... I mean its a joke.. even when its said to be a cause, the incidence is often put down to around 10% of cases of schizophrenia are attributable to marijuana.. That works out to be a 1 in 1000 risk... The effort by the media and government to blame a 1 in 1000 risk of psychosis- a rare and highly dubious association- its a joke.

 

Marijuana does not cause psychosis in people that are otherwise not already going to develop it..

 

I am damn tired of the reefer madness hysteria.. I am a very heavy smoker of pot, even i myself was once warned by a psychiatrist that if I ever smoked pot (which i have been doing for many years now), I would go psychotic.. I just don't believe marijuana causes psychosis in people that don't already have the disposition.

 

You may be right but propaganda goes two ways and who knows what to believe anymore?? Here's the research I'm talking about --- these are all very credible research papers particularly the research conducted in NZ over a 30 year period using 259 test subjects. I'd like to see links to the research you're quoting and lead academic names + years of research so I can look up the research and read it. UKCIA doesn't cut it unless they link to credible research papers or put the papers up... OH ---- one strange thing having said this is that research now demonstrates that the schizophrenia rates have declined in the UK in a period that cannabis use has increased fourfold (as you point out) so it is VERY possible all the research that proves a causal link between mj and schizophrenia is totally bogus ---- Go figure! Who knows anymore ------ there's just so many lies that are proliferated by so called credible researchers.

 

One 16-year study found that individuals who were not depressed and then used cannabis were four times more likely to become depressed at follow-up. (Bovasso, 2001)

 

Another study investigated changes over a 14-year period and found that cannabis use was a predicator in later major depressive disorders. (Brook, 2002)

 

A study over a 21-year period found that cannabis use was associated with depression, suicidal thoughts and suicide attempts. (Fergusson, 2002)

 

A 15-year study conducted in Sweden argued the link between schizophrenia and heavy cannabis use. This was then reanalyzed and replicated in further studies (Andreasson, 1987 and Zammit, 2002)

 

A 21-year longitudinal study showed that cannabis use was associated to psychotic symptoms and suggested a causal relationship. (Fergusson, 2003)

 

A review of five studies found that using cannabis is one of several components that contribute to the onset of schizophrenia. (Smit, 2004)

 

Some studies have shown that cannabinoid receptors in the brain are related to the pathology of schizophrenia (Dean, 2001)

 

A study from New Zealand, conducted over a 30 year period with 259 test subjects, demonstrated that participants who smoked cannabis at a young age were 6 times more likely to suffer schizophrenia in later life, confirming/substantiating earlier Swedish assertations. (Ferguson, 2005)

 

A synopsis of the New Zealand study

 

Using cannabis in adolescence increases the likelihood of experiencing symptoms of schizophrenia in adulthood. Our findings agree with those of the Swedish study1 and add three new pieces of evidence. Firstly, cannabis use is associated with an increased risk of experiencing schizophrenia symptoms, even after psychotic symptoms preceding the onset of cannabis use are controlled for, indicating that cannabis use is not secondary to a pre-existing psychosis. Secondly, early cannabis use (by age 15) confers greater risk for schizophrenia outcomes than later cannabis use (by age 18). The youngest cannabis users may be most at risk because their cannabis use becomes longstanding.5 Thirdly, risk was specific to cannabis use, as opposed to use of other drugs, and early cannabis use did not predict later depression. Our findings now require replication in large population studies with detailed measures of cannabis use and schizophrenia.

 

Although most young people use cannabis in adolescence without harm, a vulnerable minority experience harmful outcomes. A tenth of the cannabis users by age 15 in our sample (3/29) developed a schizophreniform disorder by age 26 compared with 3% of the remaining cohort (22/730). Our findings suggest that cannabis use among psychologically vulnerable adolescents should be strongly discouraged by parents, teachers, and health practitioners. Policy makers and law makers should concentrate on delaying onset of cannabis use.

 

The Christchurch Press reported on March 22, 2005, that "The lead researcher in the Christchurch study, Professor David Fergusson, said the role of cannabis in psychosis was not sufficient on its own to guide legislation. 'The result suggests heavy use can result in adverse side-effects,' he said. 'That can occur with ( heavy use of ) any substance. It can occur with milk.' Fergusson's research, released this month, concluded that heavy cannabis smokers were 1.5 times more likely to suffer symptoms of psychosis than non-users. The study was the latest in several reports based on a cohort of about 1000 people born in Christchurch over a four-month period in 1977. An effective way to deal with cannabis use would be to incrementally reduce penalties and carefully evaluate its impact, Fergusson said. 'Reduce the penalty, like a parking fine. You could then monitor ( the impact ) after five or six years. If it did not change, you might want to take another step.' Source: Bleakley, Louise, "NZ Study Used in UK Drug Review," The Press (Christchurch, New Zealand: March 22, 2005)

 

Here's a link to a open source paper that is quite good --- it pretty much takes the whole schizophrenia/mj debate back to its beginnings with:

 

"The recent surge in research activity into cannabis use and its link to psychosis is timely, given the trend of increasing cannabis use worldwide. Despite the new clinical, biochemical and genetic evidence, the exact relationship between cannabis use and SSD is unclear. It is observed that not all schizophrenic patients use cannabis and not all cannabis users develop SSD. The evidence for the argument that schizophrenic patients are attracted to cannabis is not strong. There is also no firm evidence that cannabis causes SSDs. The most plausible explanation is that cannabis may precipitate a psychosis in minority of abusers who are vulnerable. Still, 2 issues are unclear in this argument. First, what constitutes this vulnerability: Is it genetic, behavioral, socioeconomic or a combination of these factors? Second, whether this psychosis is a separate diagnosis or is it schizophrenia occurring early?

 

More research is needed into resolving these issues; and also on areas of drug combinations in treatment, rehabilitation and socioeconomic burden on patients with a dual diagnosis, especially in developing nations." (Jesus ---- more research :-) I think they should just stop wasting tax payers money and legalize, which is a foregone conclusion anyway (regardless of minuscule who gives a rats, end of the planet shitholes like WA being governed by rednecks like Colin Barnett)- whether that be 1 year, 20 years or 100 years from now.

 

http://www.ijpm.info/article.asp?issn=0253...;aulast=Rodrigo

 

End of day I totally agree with your reefer madness statements but its also important to evaluate credible research openly and fairly. Researchers have since argued that there may be other reasons for 0 increase in schizophrenia and psychosis in the UK (e.g. improved medical care etc) which we also should remain open minded to. End of day why even factor in these arguments. Prohibition is the greatest evil by a country mile - laws against drugs and imprisoning people has far more devastating social outcomes.

Edited June 2, 2010 by mull-ray

[snooch]

I agree with what you're saying there mull-ray. I don't believe that all credible research should be disregarded because it doesn't fit what our specific agenda might be. Problem is, who really knows what research is credible? A lot of it, particularly from the pro-prohibition crowd, is often funded by those with vested interests in reaching pre-determined outcomes.

 

I still reckon the best research available to all of us is personal experience. I'm sure we all know, or know of, people who have had problems with certain drugs. I'm sure we all know people who have also benefited greatly from drugs (and I'm talking specifically about mind-altering drugs), or who at the very least have not suffered any significant health issues as a result.

 

I would still maintain that regardless of whether or not there are adverse health effects as the result of cannabis use, does not make it right that it's prohibited to use, thus making all users criminals. You simply have to treat that small minority that might suffer health problems as a result imo, same as with any drug.

 

I'm currently doing some research into intoxication and humans do not differ from many, many other species who actively seek out ways of altering their minds. Professor Ronald Siegel from UCLA has done some awesome studies and written books on this subject. So my argument remains that the search for mind-altering substances is natural, making the attempt by humans to subvert such activity futile and unnecessary.

 

Sorry for getting a bit off topic there...

[mull-ray]

"I agree with what you're saying there mull-ray. I don't believe that all credible research should be disregarded because it doesn't fit what our specific agenda might be. Problem is, who really knows what research is credible? A lot of it, particularly from the pro-prohibition crowd, is often funded by those with vested interests in reaching pre-determined outcomes."

 

Yes, that is certain. And yet stoners line up to contribute to this research. On the other hand the AMA in the US has called for research into medical cannabis. Totally weird how the country that began the war on drugs is now leading the way into the light. What I very much liked was the way the spokes person for Oaksterdam Uni showed Bartlett up for the moron he is. IQ wise she killed him:-) Bartlett ought to stop drinking booze and snorting cocaine and begin smoking mj to raise his IQ.

[snooch]

On the other hand the AMA in the US has called for research into medical cannabis. Totally weird how the country that began the war on drugs is now leading the way into the light.

 

Agree with what you're saying, but I'm still troubled by the fact that the legalisation/decrimin debate in the US - at least in the political arena - seems to be focused on the economic benefits rather than medicinal benefits. It's just a money grab, and that could be just a short term fix imo

 

That said, it would be nice if the Australian Medical Association did the same thing as its sister body in the US rather than trotting out the usual propaganda bs

[jabez]

You may be right but propaganda goes two ways and who knows what to believe anymore?? Here's the research I'm talking about --- these are all very credible research papers particularly the research conducted in NZ over a 30 year period using 259 test subjects. I'd like to see links to the research you're quoting and lead academic names + years of research so I can look up the research and read it. UKCIA doesn't cut it unless they link to credible research papers or put the papers up... OH ---- one strange thing having said this is that research now demonstrates that the schizophrenia rates have declined in the UK in a period that cannabis use has increased fourfold (as you point out) so it is VERY possible all the research that proves a causal link between mj and schizophrenia is totally bogus ---- Go figure! Who knows anymore ------ there's just so many lies that are proliferated by so called credible researchers.

 

One 16-year study found that individuals who were not depressed and then used cannabis were four times more likely to become depressed at follow-up. (Bovasso, 2001)

 

Another study investigated changes over a 14-year period and found that cannabis use was a predicator in later major depressive disorders. (Brook, 2002)

 

A study over a 21-year period found that cannabis use was associated with depression, suicidal thoughts and suicide attempts. (Fergusson, 2002)

 

A 15-year study conducted in Sweden argued the link between schizophrenia and heavy cannabis use. This was then reanalyzed and replicated in further studies (Andreasson, 1987 and Zammit, 2002)

 

A 21-year longitudinal study showed that cannabis use was associated to psychotic symptoms and suggested a causal relationship. (Fergusson, 2003)

 

A review of five studies found that using cannabis is one of several components that contribute to the onset of schizophrenia. (Smit, 2004)

 

Some studies have shown that cannabinoid receptors in the brain are related to the pathology of schizophrenia (Dean, 2001)

 

A study from New Zealand, conducted over a 30 year period with 259 test subjects, demonstrated that participants who smoked cannabis at a young age were 6 times more likely to suffer schizophrenia in later life, confirming/substantiating earlier Swedish assertations. (Ferguson, 2005)

 

A synopsis of the New Zealand study

 

Using cannabis in adolescence increases the likelihood of experiencing symptoms of schizophrenia in adulthood. Our findings agree with those of the Swedish study1 and add three new pieces of evidence. Firstly, cannabis use is associated with an increased risk of experiencing schizophrenia symptoms, even after psychotic symptoms preceding the onset of cannabis use are controlled for, indicating that cannabis use is not secondary to a pre-existing psychosis. Secondly, early cannabis use (by age 15) confers greater risk for schizophrenia outcomes than later cannabis use (by age 18). The youngest cannabis users may be most at risk because their cannabis use becomes longstanding.5 Thirdly, risk was specific to cannabis use, as opposed to use of other drugs, and early cannabis use did not predict later depression. Our findings now require replication in large population studies with detailed measures of cannabis use and schizophrenia.

 

Although most young people use cannabis in adolescence without harm, a vulnerable minority experience harmful outcomes. A tenth of the cannabis users by age 15 in our sample (3/29) developed a schizophreniform disorder by age 26 compared with 3% of the remaining cohort (22/730). Our findings suggest that cannabis use among psychologically vulnerable adolescents should be strongly discouraged by parents, teachers, and health practitioners. Policy makers and law makers should concentrate on delaying onset of cannabis use.

 

The Christchurch Press reported on March 22, 2005, that "The lead researcher in the Christchurch study, Professor David Fergusson, said the role of cannabis in psychosis was not sufficient on its own to guide legislation. 'The result suggests heavy use can result in adverse side-effects,' he said. 'That can occur with ( heavy use of ) any substance. It can occur with milk.' Fergusson's research, released this month, concluded that heavy cannabis smokers were 1.5 times more likely to suffer symptoms of psychosis than non-users. The study was the latest in several reports based on a cohort of about 1000 people born in Christchurch over a four-month period in 1977. An effective way to deal with cannabis use would be to incrementally reduce penalties and carefully evaluate its impact, Fergusson said. 'Reduce the penalty, like a parking fine. You could then monitor ( the impact ) after five or six years. If it did not change, you might want to take another step.' Source: Bleakley, Louise, "NZ Study Used in UK Drug Review," The Press (Christchurch, New Zealand: March 22, 2005)

 

Here's a link to a open source paper that is quite good --- it pretty much takes the whole schizophrenia/mj debate back to its beginnings with:

 

"The recent surge in research activity into cannabis use and its link to psychosis is timely, given the trend of increasing cannabis use worldwide. Despite the new clinical, biochemical and genetic evidence, the exact relationship between cannabis use and SSD is unclear. It is observed that not all schizophrenic patients use cannabis and not all cannabis users develop SSD. The evidence for the argument that schizophrenic patients are attracted to cannabis is not strong. There is also no firm evidence that cannabis causes SSDs. The most plausible explanation is that cannabis may precipitate a psychosis in minority of abusers who are vulnerable. Still, 2 issues are unclear in this argument. First, what constitutes this vulnerability: Is it genetic, behavioral, socioeconomic or a combination of these factors? Second, whether this psychosis is a separate diagnosis or is it schizophrenia occurring early?

 

More research is needed into resolving these issues; and also on areas of drug combinations in treatment, rehabilitation and socioeconomic burden on patients with a dual diagnosis, especially in developing nations." (Jesus ---- more research :-) I think they should just stop wasting tax payers money and legalize, which is a foregone conclusion anyway (regardless of minuscule who gives a rats, end of the planet shitholes like WA being governed by rednecks like Colin Barnett)- whether that be 1 year, 20 years or 100 years from now.

 

http://www.ijpm.info/article.asp?issn=0253...;aulast=Rodrigo

 

End of day I totally agree with your reefer madness statements but its also important to evaluate credible research openly and fairly. Researchers have since argued that there may be other reasons for 0 increase in schizophrenia and psychosis in the UK (e.g. improved medical care etc) which we also should remain open minded to. End of day why even factor in these arguments. Prohibition is the greatest evil by a country mile - laws against drugs and imprisoning people has far more devastating social outcomes.

 

Mull-ray, this is not a personal stab at you. But you should actually go back and properly read those studies you have provided. The ignorance of your claims may hopefully become a little more clearer.

 

All your studies are trying to claim is that people who abuse cannabis are more likely to develop a mental illness. But how does that in anyway prove cannabis was the cause?

 

To put into perspective, cannabis is not an addictive drug. So there for, using simple logic, a completely healthy young person would have no desire to get stoned 24/7. They'd want to be out partying and being active. So when a person decides for no reason, to do nothing but sit around smoking cannabis all day for a long period of time and develops a mental illness, it imo would be incredibly bad and sloppy science to automatically just assume that cannabis was the cause, rather then a symptom. Which is all any of your studies attempt to do.

 

If cannabis did cause healthy people to develop a mental illness, it would be incredibly easy to prove. Since the rate of cannabis use has risen so much since the sixties. If there really were any real Heath risks associated with cannabis use, the rate of mental illness would of had a clear rise as well. But as has already been pointed out, it hasn't.

 

Those studies you provided are purposely written by researchers supporting government drug policy, so they can obtain a grant. 

 

No study I have ever read has actually claimed cannabis causes mental illness. They usually just word it in a manner so that a person who either lacks intelligence or has extremist idealistic views, might mistakenly think it does.

 

ITS CALLED PROPAGANDA BROTHER!

 

Peace

[mull-ray]

You ought to read my post more thoroughly. What I say is while there have been some extremely comprehensive studies can we believe the data? I.e. is it propaganda? I think even with the studies - what seems to occur is that if people begin using cannabis at a very young age (before their brains have fully developed) there is a higher incidence of schizophrenia and other mental disorders among those users. There's also new evidence though that suggests that people who begin using at a young age do so because they are already experiencing mental disorders --- so the argument has gone full circle. Myself; I don't engage in dogma one way or the other and like to evaluate all facts as they come in. What you should also note in my post is that I also point out that alcohol also increases the incidence of psychosis and other mental health issues.

 

The other major question mark is if cannabis does cause mental health disorders why then has the rate of schizophrenia remained stable (even fallen) in the UK while there has been a fourfold increase in usage rates of cannabis amongst the population? Read post thoroughly before sounding ignorant. What I am also saying is cannabis users should not partake in research with wankers who get funds from the government (e.g. NDARC and other twats who would tell you they are not government funded but when you actually do a check on where much of their funding comes from it is clear the Australian government supplied the funds). Let's try and be more open and accountable (less corrupt) than these guys and at least acknowledge the research and analyze it fairly.

 

BTW.... Many of the research participants they use in their research are accessed through Needle and syringe exchanges and rehab and youth agencies so the data is grossly biased by this alone. Question 1: what cannabis user needs to visit a needle exchange? and so on. Research is corrupt - we all know this already.

Edited June 28, 2010 by mull-ray