NORML Australia

[entheofarm]

Hi Russ and welcome to OZ STONERS.

 

great to see some action from NORML in representing themselves here.

 

The Cannabis community in Australia is a strange beast and there is little unity, except, we are very defensive in our individual beliefs, sally someone and anthony arsehole learnt this.

 

I welcome any attempt for a law reform group to get started in Australia, but I agree, we are not mexican and take offence to the word marijuana, I understand the points you made and they are valid, however our distaste for the M word is strong and should be encouraged.

 

With the right attitude and some local identity changes, you will find that it will be very easy to establish without costs, or executive jets etc, a strong lobbying group in Australia.

 

Perhaps dropping the attitude will help

[Gruntus]

Very considered, articulate reply Russ. Thanks.

I hope that you're taken up on that offer and we can move forward here.

[Guest niall]

Russ I agree with you on many points, but there is a certain flavour of USA "attitude" (for lack of a better word) that us Aussies don't react well to. I can see that in Keith's email and it comes through in some of your points here as well.

 

NORML just doesn't have any brand recognition down here, in fact I think it's clearly got some real baggage to go with it. As much as we could benefit from shared resources, the bulk of the real work has got to be done down here obviously and I think you guys just don't understand Australia like we do - what will and will not work. I'm sure that sounds obvious, like any country, but I really feel there's something particular about our culture down here and I tend to agree with many of the posts here that NORML just wouldn't work.

 

But let's see if there's more support for this. I've gotten 3 emails so far, so that makes 4 of us, hopefully there are a few more reading this..?

[MadamePandora]

Finally, as to what NORML does, let me paraphrase John F. Kennedy: "Ask not what your NORML can do for you; as what you can do for your NORML." I think some people have this concept that they join NORML and suddenly a crack team of reformers flies in from Washington DC and "forms" your NORML chapter. Sorry, that's the other guys, and with that, you get just as much freedom to pursue their exact agenda under their exact terms as a dog has input on the direction of the nightly walk with his master.

 

Here's how it works: local people get fed up with prohibition and decide they want to do something about it. They contact me at NORML and I put them in touch with other local people. I help those local people organize and form their own independent non-profit organization that then affiliates with NORML for the right to use our logo, branding, research, studies, web resources, databases, lawyer referrals, and contacts. The local org then works at the local level to petition government and to educate the public in whatever way they see fit, with guidance from (but not control by) NORML.

 

I have been following this topic and am undecided on what the best path might be for Australia.

 

Sure it would be handy to have people who have experience and some success in reform to advise and guide us..... BUT I am not sure exactly how much information from the US will be relevant here.

 

Does NORML have a list of Australian Lawyers who are interested in working towards law reform?

Surely our countries have legislative differences that might make it pointless to try to bring an overseas model to Australia?

Are there enough people here who are motivated to get things started?

 

I am a definite maybe on getting more involved in the change process. I'll see what comes out of these discussions and then see if I want to be involved.

[Pure]

If you're wondering why a free link from NORML to OzStoners was never offered, ask yourself if the Sydney Morning Herald would offer a free 4"x1/2" color advert for the Nhulunbuy newspaper in exchange for a Sydney ad in Nhulunbuy. Internet etiquette is great when you're Joe Blow and you're link-exchanging with Sally Somebody to cross-promote each others' blogs.

 

Do the math. If we practiced "internet etiquette" with every Tom, Dick, and Harry who starts a cannabis chat forum, we'd have a link farm a mile long that would be so dilute as to be worthless.

 

Wow , kinda shows how much notice was paid to us, Our offer was to pay for advertising and trying to work out somesort of arangement for mabey a representative to pop in occationally because members where intrested, but if you feel better jumping the gun then I guess thats just you at least now we know.

 

The internet etiquette I was refering to was the fact that we shouldn't be expected to suport or allow the advertising of people who have simply Ignored the Australian Cannabis Community for so many years when we have people who do pay to keep this site going like bubblebags australia .

 

But we're getting 1 out of every 25,000 web surfers WORLDWIDE looking at our site and you're getting 3 out of a million. Our web real estate is worth 14 times yours in,worldwide reach.

 

1 of 25,00 websurfers lmfao who's feeding you that cause to put it politely it's a load of crap

 

This was never a pissing match our issue was the fact we where simply ignored for 9 years when we tried to do everything from get a paid advertising banner or even a spot on your affiliate page like you have given other places the opertunity to have.

I am not sure how you guys operate in the US with your thousands of small forums like you have said their are , but Australians do things a bit differently our population is about the size of some of your larger states which clearly also makes our cannabis community a comparative size .

 

The fact is you guys may be a pretty decent size in comparison to your population , but if it's national percentages I would have to say that the "real estate " here ain't doin too shabby .

 

 

Hosting our site and its massive traffic does cost money. Why should we be freely linking to your site, driving hordes of traffic your way, so you can make money on your bubblebag-australia adverts?

 

As I said we actually offered to pay it was just clearly ignored, as for your costs of hosting we run two dedicated servers in a switchable HA so we are well aware of hosting costs which is why we offered to pay for our advertising and would expect you to understand why we couldn't allow you to recive free advertising yourself Outside of our links section ofcourse where NORML has had a place since day one funnly enough

 

 

As for Mr. Stroup's terse reply, well, if you'd been getting these kind of emails (and previously, letters) for near forty years denigrating the cause you love and the organization that is your legacy, you might get a little snippy from time to time when people from another country complain you're not doing enough for them.

 

The sad thing about that email is that it was simply sent to a paying member who had asked where his money had gone

[MongyMan]

If you're wondering why a free link from NORML to OzStoners was never offered, ask yourself if the Sydney Morning Herald would offer a free 4"x1/2" color advert for the Nhulunbuy newspaper in exchange for a Sydney ad in Nhulunbuy. Internet etiquette is great when you're Joe Blow and you're link-exchanging with Sally Somebody to cross-promote each others' blogs. But we're getting 1 out of every 25,000 web surfers WORLDWIDE looking at our site and you're getting 3 out of a million. Our web real estate is worth 14 times yours in worldwide reach.

 

Thanks for your reply russ but I think you might be missing the point entirely. Is NORML all about working towards cannabis law reform or making money from advertising because from the above quote I would have to assume it's the latter? It shouldn't matter squat how many visitors per however many net surfers a site gets or if one site is worth a gazzillion times more than another one if you are genuine about networking for the benefit of cannabis law reform as top priority should it?

 

Hosting our site and its massive traffic does cost money. Why should we be freely linking to your site, driving hordes of traffic your way, so you can make money on your bubblebag-australia adverts?

 

Thats just plain insulting russ. Asking for a link on the NORMAL site has nothing to do with money. It is a genuine attempt by Australians worried about cannabis laws, trying to work with one of the largest international organisations for cannabis law reform hopfully to the benefit of all. As for the Bubble-bags, Ozstoners costs money to run too you know. That's why we sell a small amount of advertising, which we keep as limited as we can by the way. I'm amazed it is even an issue to tell you the truth. Does it pain NORML that much to see another cannabis site covering their costs?

 

Do the math. If we practiced "internet etiquette" with every Tom, Dick, and Harry who starts a cannabis chat forum, we'd have a link farm a mile long that would be so dilute as to be worthless.

 

I'll leave the math up to you russ, you seem to like it As for every Tom, Dick, and Harry, fair dinkum mate. Ozstoners is Australias oldest and largest online cannabis forum. It also has a large and daily growing number of international members from all corners of the globe. I can understand you not wanting to dilute the link farm but not having Ozstoners linked detracts from its value and usfullnes I would have thought.

 

Peace MongyMan

[Russ Belville]

Thanks, entheofarm. I try not to drop an attitude, but I am very passionate about NORML, cannabis, and marijuana law reform. I had hoped to reflect a level of attitude only slightly below the attitude that was thrown toward me.

 

It's interesting to me how cannabis cultures worldwide take certain terms. I do lots of stories and my American stories always refer to "marijuana" (because it was our media that started this prohibition through racist fear-mongering after all) and the UK/Aussie stories always refer to "cannabis" (as they properly should). So I get that Australians take great offense in the Mexican slang term "marijuana".

 

But here in America, we take great offense to the term "stoner". It's just one epithet level above "pothead" and "doper" to us. Maybe a cultural equivalent would be the African-American culture here in America and their use of the word "nigger"*. It's cool if they say it amongst each other, but damn sure nobody else better call them that or refer to them that way in public. And you certainly wouldn't find them chatting on a forum with that word in the URL.

 

I do hope Australians band together to form a serious cannabis reform organization, regardless if it is affiliated with NORML or not. Because so far in my reporting, I see lots of reefer madness from the Australian government and never any rebuttal from a national cannabis organization. Nimbin's great, this forum's fine, but to affect real change you must put down the bong and step away from the computer and do the real work of activism.

 

Russ Belville

NORML Outreach Coordinator

russ@norml.org

 

(*Sorry if I offend, but I don't play the "n-word" game. We're adults. We can speak openly about language, and my use of quotation marks and context clearly show I'm not using the word to be racist.)

[MongyMan]

I don't think anyone was truly offended by you using "marijuana" Russ but alot of people feel very passionately the way the media uses it to demonize cannabis. IMO it is a good idea to move away from the use of the word as cannabis has a 'scientific ring' to it whereas marijuana is entrenched in western vocabulary as an 'illicit drug'.

 

PS. One thing I have noticed over the last few years I've been a regular member of Ozstoners is that there is a big difference between the American way of 'web speak' and the Australian way. I'm not sure how Americans view us (as a bunch of smart asses I presume ) but I know in general Americans are viewed in Australia as arrogant and overbearing. I hope this is something that changes with time. What I am trying to say is that I can see this thread turning to shit over simple misunderstandings due to cultural differences and don't want to see it happen. To anyone reading and posting, think alot before getting offended by anything posted. Any correspondence between the members of Ozstoners and NORML has to be a good thing yes?

 

Peace MongyMan

[Russ Belville]

Our offer was to pay for advertising

 

Then I apologize, because I didn't realize that. Like I said, been on the job for four months.

 

Does NORML have a list of Australian Lawyers who are interested in working towards law reform?

 

Again, we do not fly in and build your networks for you. NORML Legal Committee was built by local activists hitting up local lawyers and getting them to join the committee. If you had a NORML Australia, you could turn to lawyers and offer them a huge web presence, unparalleled brand recognition, and the reputation of being listed alongside some of the finest attorneys in the world.

 

We shouldn't be expected to suport or allow the advertising of people who have simply Ignored the Australian Cannabis Community for so many years

 

I apologize if you've felt ignored. Like I said, outreach has been unmanned for a couple of years. Before that, NORML had enough irons in the fire just managing the USA. So here I am, reaching out, not ignoring, going above and beyond the mandate of the "National", not "International", Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws.

 

1 of 25,00 websurfers lmfao who's feeding you that cause to put it politely it's a load of crap

 

You'll have to call Alexa Web Ranking Service and tell them they're full of crap, then:

 

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/norml.org = 31,123rd most popular website worldwide, average time on site 3.5 min/day, 1,444 inbound links, reaching 0.00412% of worldwide audience.

 

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/ozstoners.com = 422,142nd most popular website worldwide, average time on site 1.3 min/day, 25 inbound links, reaching 0.00029% of worldwide audience.

 

if it's national percentages I would have to say that the "real estate " here ain't doin too shabby

 

You may have a point there. Alexa tells me OzStoners is the 14,549th most popular site in Australia. However, NORML is the 6,728th most popular in America. Also, while 89.4% of NORML's web traffic is from America, only 29.5% of OzStoner's traffic is from Australia. You actually get over half your traffic from North America.

 

Is NORML all about working towards cannabis law reform or making money from advertising because from the above quote I would have to assume it's the latter?

 

It takes making money from advertising to have the website, produce TV commercials, hire staff to lobby Congress, produce a daily podcast, host legal seminars, host national conferences, fund studies, produce white papers and books full of research. I find it ironic that on one hand, you complain that NORML has done nothing for Australia, and on the other hand complain about spending some money on NORML so we can do that.

 

Again, it isn't "I send in $25 to NORML and an elite team flies into Australia and changes your cannabis laws." YOU change your cannabis laws, YOU organize, and the $25 you send to NORML funds those books, studies, shows, commercials, podcasts, research, court challenges, etc. that YOU use as your arsenal to change hearts and minds.

 

Ozstoners is Australias oldest and largest online cannabis forum. It also has a large and daily growing number of international members from all corners of the globe.

 

That's fantastic. You have 22,345 registered members. Now, has that translated into any mentions of OzStoners in the Australian media? Has the director of OzStoners testified in front of Parliament? Has OzStoners joined onto any lawsuits meant to overturn prohibition? Has OzStoners produced any legitimate peer-reviewed cannabis research? What are the latest book titles from OzStoner's researchers? In other words, has OzStoners provided much other than a place to chat and look at cannaporn?

 

Good luck, Australia. It doesn't affect me one way or the other if you hate NORML; my mandate is American marijuana laws. I'm happy to offer our help in organizing and fighting your prohibition - we're here if you want us.

[MongyMan]

Russ, why does it have to keep turning into a competition over who's dick is the biggest? Have you seen the southpark episode with the Chinese and Americans? It's starting to feel alot like that mate. I at no time have said NORML has done nothing for Australia. Stop being so bloody defensive ffs and putting words into members mouths as it suits. We are supposed to be allies. Yes I get that it takes money to run a site so why bring into question how Ozstoners does it? You seem to be more about belittling others and singing the praises of NOMAL at all cost. What's the go there Russ?

 

Are you for cannabis law reform or NORML profits?

 

Why are web traffic figures so important to you. Surly law reform an networking comes first?

 

Is NORML going to add a link to Ozstoners? It would be greatly appreciated. We are a truly international site as the traffic figures show. Not some Tom Dick and Harry piss ant show.

 

Good luck, Australia. It doesn't affect me one way or the other if you hate NORML; my mandate is American marijuana laws. I'm happy to offer our help in organizing and fighting your prohibition - we're here if you want us.

 

Fair enough. You are American after all. My mandate is global personally. It would be nice if you could help but in the end we will have to do it alone if we have to. Eddie Marbo was a small man too. Thanks for your time anyway.

 

Peace MongyMan