NORML Australia

[luciddreaming]

We could always just have a chat forum thing instead of meeting in person? But obviously any 'demonstrations' would be local.

[entheofarm]

honestly I think NORML should get stuffed.

 

the attitude from Kieth over me wanting my money back has demonstrated they only want the money!

 

this from Russ:

 

Furthermore, I know for a fact that cannabis-friendly Australian internet forums, like ozstoners.com, not only refuse to get involved with organizing NORML chapters, they actively censor any attempts on their forums to recruit for NORML. Thus it is that Australia has no effective regional or national non-profits (that I know of) actively lobbying government and educating the public about the futility and cruelty of marijuana prohibition.

 

the FACT is Oz and Pure were trying to save us money.

 

Start our own org. why does it have to have anything to do with NORML?

[Pure]

We only removed their thread after again we where ignored by email, the purpose of that email was to confirm the legitamacy of the offer being posted , and also to once again ask about advertising or suport trade

 

There is a certain etiquette on the internet that NORML seems to think is only a one way street , Over the years we have advertised them for free , run banners and offered assistance in well over 30 - 50 emails all of which have just been ignored. When people support our community we are happy to suport them , but it's not fair that we allow certain groups to act with a totally different set of rules than whats in place for everyone else.

 

If they see our view as anything but the truth thats been learned with first hand experiance over the last 9 years then they should mabey change their ways , so far even the folks that seem to have stood behind them 100% have lost their money and again met that not important enough to contact list

 

We have nothing at all against NORML we think they have done allot of good which is why we have tried so hard in the past to actually get into contact with them. But if all they want is money from people then they can pay us to advertise here like anyone else or at-least respond to our emails.

 

Lightning and littlebit are a perfect example that we certainly allow advertising to donate to pro cannabis causes here without biast , the difference there is they Followed web eticate and actually discussed what their intentions and situation was

 

 

Edit ...

 

This was passed onto me as a reply from NORML to one of the people who asked for their money back

 

Perhaps you did not notice our name — The National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws (NORML).

 

Does that name suggest to you that, as a US based non-profit, we would spend our time or resources helping someone we have never heard of and about whom we know nothing, to get a marijuana legalization group founded in Australia? If so, you need some help with your language skills.

 

In the future, we will be delighted to ignore you altogether.

 

Regards,

 

R. Keith Stroup, Esq.

NORML Legal Counsel

 

Please join me at NORML’s 38th annual national conference

‘Yes We Cannabis!’

September 24-26, 2009

Grand Hyatt at Union Square, San Francisco

Details at www.norml.org

888-67-NORML

 

Guess the most appropriate thing to say is wow great attitude

[iamnotacop]

Lightning and littlebit are a perfect example that we certainly allow advertising to donate to pro cannabis causes here without biast , the difference there is they Followed web eticate and actually discussed what their intentions and situation was

 

Amen. I agree that we should be supporting these people, as they have a valid case, and are following through with their stated goals. Sure, their goal is to keep themselves out of jail, but we should all be taking notice, and donating where we can. These two people can actually force the Gov to change the laws, with the high courts orders. I wish I could say more, but you guys should really look at all the information that has already been provided by littlbit and lightning.

 

 

Some of us want a clean/presentable/intelligent/articulate person to be the face of the struggle, yet how many of you know he is already out there. What we need to do is get behind them as much as possible, and even if they fail in their quest, they will still be invaluable to the cause in the future. Oh, I should say that if they do fail it is no fault of their own, as they are 100% right according to the laws of the land.

[DarkSpark]

And budman, in regards too your question about not associating with this site, so long as all NORML activities are kept on one site and this forum/site is used seperately i cant see the harm.. If they really are going too have a big bitch fit over it then why bother. you guys say that a small organisation can't go far, but all organizations start somewhere. and i honestly think there is an abundance of people in australia who would join the cause if we started too spread the word.

[jabez]

Ok, firstly when you say marijuana, people are more likely to think “drug". When you say cannabis people are more likely to think “plant”, in my opinion.

 

Marijuana is a racist American word and I will not or ever join an organization that uses it as their name. Anyway what could be the possible advantage of using the NORML name in Australia? If you think it’s going to give you more respect with the government or media, you’re kidding yourself.

 

We need to make our own drug law reform organization that has a name that is irrelevant to Australia. If there’s a motivated and determined individual who has the know how to get the ball rolling out there, then I’d join tomorrow. But I honestly think NORML is the wrong way to go.

 

Not saying they haven’t done a lot of good work in the “US” and maybe NZ (although I know nothing about the NZ chapter, from what I've read here they don't seem to serious) . Just don’t see how that name can do anything to help change attitudes in Australia.

 

We need to start our own.

[Guest niall]

For what it's worth I tend to agree with Pure, jabez, entheofarm and others. I personally don't think we need to affiliate ourselves with NORML, and from the email Pure posted ... that's just fucked.

 

However if 5 people are already registered members, and they can identify themselves here in the thread or by PM or email, then I'm happy to help get this thing off the ground if that's what people want.

 

Personally I strongly believe that any name should use correct terminology - cannabis. And I've had trouble getting any real detail out of NORML so far on what resources and advice they'll make available to us, what the real incentive is for us to associate with them.

 

There's little to no history of NORML in Australia. I know there was a WA Chapter about 20 years back, used to be in contact with one of the founding guys a while back, but it's not a recognised name in Australia and I personally think we'd be better off going at this on our own and coming up with a better name and a fresh approach.

 

Russ replied so I've asked for explicit permission to post his reply, but basically he said yep just stay within the USA-centric principles with the relevent equivalent down here, after 5 members all funds stay local except a 50:50 split of all profit made from the mandated yearly fundraiser. That doesn't really sit too well with me, but if this is the direction people want to go in I'm happy to help get it happening.

 

If not, maybe we can use this thread to come up with a better approach.

 

Whether or not lightning and littlbit win their case and these laws fall, we need a public voice and a respectable non-profit organisation to represent us and lobby for our side, oppose lies and propaganda in the Australian media, keep the bastards honest, and put a positive and constructive face on cannabis users and growers.

 

I reckon we've got all the tools we need to organise ourselves, and people can remain anonymous if they prefer while a few people take a public stand and put a human face on this. I'm happy to do that, but it will help if we have more people from around Australia willing to go on radio, TV and be interviewed in the papers etc. It's not something you can do alone, I tried for years to drum up interest in this type of approach and I burnt myself out. We need to build something sustainable, where people can help each other out and contribute as a team, letting each other take a rest now and then and trying to attract a steady influx of new members and activists to keep momentum going.

 

So far I've only had 1 email from you guys, and I think that shows that people are pissed off about this and don't have faith in NORML or that we should affiliate ourselves with them. I think we should look to other models like the Marijuana Policy Project, Americans for Safe Access, Law Enforcement Against Prohibition (though they seem to be having a bit of a power struggle internally), and look at open and transparent models of organising ourselves like the Victoria Island Compassion Society, BC Compassion Society etc.

 

Above all it needs to be structured to ensure that everyone involved is empowered and has a voice. I would strongly oppose any type of structure that doesn't involve voting members to appointed positions with clear responsibilities to the organisation, and a bottom-up, grass-roots participatory democracy style to ensure every idea has the potential to be voted and acted on in a co-ordinated way. We need to have a consistent public image, with clear policies and a set of recommendations that we want to make to our Politicians and society in general (if the law falls it's up to Parliament to enact NEW laws that are compliant with the Court's ruling, the Constitution and our Treaty obligations etc.) so we could very well have a serious media battle over the next 12 months to make sure future laws are evidence based and centred around appropriate regulation with homebrew style provisions or whatever it is that we believe in. But internally I think we need to ensure that everyone's ideas and opinions can be discussed and get a chance to be taken seriously, and if enough members agree then we can take consistent action or change our policies etc.

 

I think the worst thing we could do is to provide an inconsistent or contradictory public image, with some members saying one thing and others another. And even worse would be to have the organisation controlled or dominated by any individual or group of people.

 

But that's my usual ramble, so what do you guys think? Do we have 5 NORML members? Do we want to continue with affiliation or just can the idea? Do we want our own local org? Or can we still not be fucked doing anything? We need to start talking and getting people to put their hands up if they want to get involved in *something*, so again reply here, PM or email and maybe we can start talking directly to each other by email or phone or whatever works and see what we can do.

 

blah blah blah

[Guest niall]

Ok there's 3 people including me interested in doing something, is there anyone else who wants to get involved?

[Russ Belville]

Hi, I'm Russ Belville, the Outreach Coordinator for NORML. I've been on the job for four months now and I am eager to support the cannabis community all over the globe, especially Australia.

 

I don't know what has transpired in the past to make some on this forum and in Australia generally to form such a negative opinion of our organization - the oldest and largest cannabis community in the world. I can tell you that my position has gone unfilled for a couple of years, which may have led to the feelings some have had of being ignored or taken advantage of.

 

However, I did see this quote from above (this post, not God) that gives me some clue:

 

For 9 years we have asked NORML for a link to us on their links page and for 9 years they have ignored any emails we've sent them. We have happily linked to them however and still have them linked on our links page and have even ran their banners at times. So while we wait to see if they reply this time the post has been removed as it's become nothing but an advertisment for sending NORML money... A reform group that has basically done nothing for the Australian cannabis culture and has really had no time for it unless they're getting $'s from down here.

 

On our Allies Links page, we do have a section for Australia and there are a couple of links there (http://norml.org/index.cfm?Group_ID=6241) I will gladly follow up on the requirements for inclusion on that list and ozstoners.com meets the criteria, I'll see to it the link is placed. However, it appears to me that many (not all) of the links are for bona fide non-profit organizations. If we were to open up our links page to anyone who can buy some phpBB or IPBoard software and host a domain name, our links page would be sixty screens deep and chock full of URLs like "WeedMakesMeHappy.com" and "BigPhatNugs.org" and would greatly reduce the utility of the page and the credentials of NORML.

 

I won't patronize you and tell you we don't want monetary donations. Unlike other orgs, we don't have a billionaire backer to drop a couple million on us every year; we rely on the $5, $25, and $100 donations of average cannabis consumers just like you. You may think that money has "done nothing for the Australian cannabis culture", but when I dropped "Stroup", "St. Pierre", and "Armentano" into your search function, I got five pages worth of ozstoner.com posts. How do you think our Founder, Executive Director, and Deputy Director pay their mortgage so they can supply ozstoner.com with plenty of free content to discuss? Not to mention all of the NORML-funded studies, scientific and medical reports, and collected (US) government stats that I'm sure many an Australian cannabis supporter has used to debunk reefer madness in a letter to the editor or to a member of parliament.

 

Finally, as to what NORML does, let me paraphrase John F. Kennedy: "Ask not what your NORML can do for you; as what you can do for your NORML." I think some people have this concept that they join NORML and suddenly a crack team of reformers flies in from Washington DC and "forms" your NORML chapter. Sorry, that's the other guys, and with that, you get just as much freedom to pursue their exact agenda under their exact terms as a dog has input on the direction of the nightly walk with his master.

 

Here's how it works: local people get fed up with prohibition and decide they want to do something about it. They contact me at NORML and I put them in touch with other local people. I help those local people organize and form their own independent non-profit organization that then affiliates with NORML for the right to use our logo, branding, research, studies, web resources, databases, lawyer referrals, and contacts. The local org then works at the local level to petition government and to educate the public in whatever way they see fit, with guidance from (but not control by) NORML.

 

So if NORML hasn't "done anything" for the Australian cannabis community, the only place to look for blame is a mirror.

 

I'm open to criticism and willing to help all cannabis consumers in all countries get organized to be little platoons in resistance to this war on marijuana. Please let me know how I can help Australia become NORML.

 

Russ Belville

NORML Outreach Coordinator

russ@norml.org

 

P.S. If ozstoners.com would like to place a banner advertisement on http://stash.norml.org, our podcast/blog sister site, I'd be happy to offer it free for a month to help mend fences. We have enough enemies in government and law enforcement without fighting amongst ourselves.

[Russ Belville]

Marijuana is a racist American word and I will not or ever join an organization that uses it as their name.

 

So, then, you would not join the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People? Or contribute to the United Negro College Fund?

 

I get your point and agree - marijuana is a racist word. (I'm a little chagrined at someone on a board that calls us "stoners" - a derogatory epithet used by our opponents - complaining about calling the plant "marijuana", however.) Here's how I reconcile that: When I'm talking about the plant, I'm talking about "cannabis". When I'm talking about reforming the law (in the US), I'm talking about "marijuana laws", because that is how they are written in statute (or sometimes "marihuana laws"). Besides, "NORCL" doesn't sound as cool.

 

We need to make our own drug law reform organization that has a name that is irrelevant to Australia. If there’s a motivated and determined individual who has the know how to get the ball rolling out there, then I’d join tomorrow. But I honestly think NORML is the wrong way to go.

 

I think that is a splendid idea, if you like re-inventing the wheel and competing against an established brand with strong name recognition and nearly forty years of lobbying history. (In the US, NORML's name is recognized by 24% of ALL Americans - not just "stoners" - and enjoys positive impressions from nearly 90% of American cannabis consumers.)

 

I seriously hope no matter what you choose - affiliation with NORML or creating AORCL or something new - that you're able to create real change in Australian marijuana laws. I think you'd be wise to affiliate with NORML, of course, and its 31,123 Alexa page rank and 1,444 inbound links (the most traffic of any marijuana website) vs. OzStoners.com's 422,142 page rank and 25 inbound links, but to each their own.

 

There is a certain etiquette on the internet that NORML seems to think is only a one way street

 

If you're wondering why a free link from NORML to OzStoners was never offered, ask yourself if the Sydney Morning Herald would offer a free 4"x1/2" color advert for the Nhulunbuy newspaper in exchange for a Sydney ad in Nhulunbuy. Internet etiquette is great when you're Joe Blow and you're link-exchanging with Sally Somebody to cross-promote each others' blogs. But we're getting 1 out of every 25,000 web surfers WORLDWIDE looking at our site and you're getting 3 out of a million. Our web real estate is worth 14 times yours in worldwide reach. Hosting our site and its massive traffic does cost money. Why should we be freely linking to your site, driving hordes of traffic your way, so you can make money on your bubblebag-australia adverts?

 

Do the math. If we practiced "internet etiquette" with every Tom, Dick, and Harry who starts a cannabis chat forum, we'd have a link farm a mile long that would be so dilute as to be worthless.

 

As for Mr. Stroup's terse reply, well, if you'd been getting these kind of emails (and previously, letters) for near forty years denigrating the cause you love and the organization that is your legacy, you might get a little snippy from time to time when people from another country complain you're not doing enough for them.

 

Russ Belville

NORML Outreach Coordinator

russ@norml.org