H2O Question

[Rose Gardener]

I've noticed that our tap water is sort of hard, as noticed by the quick build up of calcium deposits in the shower.

Now I DO have a nice collection of rain water, but it's slightly "contaminated" with some dirt and wot not. It's rather brown as a result.

 

I'm just wondering, does it matter if I use my hard tap water on my lil indoor soily?

 

I have used tap water so far, and I don't want to go and BUY distilled water.

 

Any and all suggestions would be great.

 

Thanks.

Cheers.

~M.

[sunnycoaststoner]

hope this can help you mrg..

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_water

 

 

Hard water

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Not to be confused with heavy water.

 

The hardness of the water results in a calcificationHard water is water that has a high mineral content (contrast with soft water). Hard water usually consists of calcium (Ca2+), magnesium (Mg2+) ions, and possibly other dissolved compounds such as bicarbonates and sulfates. Calcium usually enters the water as either calcium carbonate (CaCO3), in the form of limestone and chalk, or calcium sulfate (CaSO4), in the form of other mineral deposits. The predominant source of magnesium is dolomite (CaMg(CO3)2). Hard water is generally not harmful.

 

The simplest way to determine the hardness of water is the lather/froth test: soap or toothpaste, when agitated, lathers easily in soft water but not in hard water. More exact measurements of hardness can be obtained through a wet titration. The total water 'hardness' (including both Ca2+ and Mg2+ ions) is read as parts per million or weight/volume (mg/L) of calcium carbonate (CaCO3) in the water. Although water hardness usually only measures the total concentrations of calcium and magnesium (the two most prevalent, divalent metal ions), iron, aluminium, and manganese may also be present at elevated levels in some geographical locations.

 

Contents [hide]

1 Hardness

2 Types of hard water

3 Measurement

4 Indices

5 Health considerations

6 Softening

6.1 Process

6.2 Why does my skin feel slippery after washing with softened water, unlike hard water?

7 Regional Information

7.1 Hard water in Australia

7.2 Hard water in Canada

7.3 Hard water in England and Wales

7.4 Hard water in the US

8 See also

9 References

10 External links

 

 

 

[edit] Hardness

Hardness in water is defined as the presence of multivalent cations. Hardness in water can cause water to form scales and a resistance to soap. It can also be defined as water that doesn’t produce lather with soap solutions, but produces white precipitate (Scum). Example :

 

2C17H35COONa + Ca++ → (C17H35COO)2Ca + 2Na+

 

[edit] Types of hard water

Hard water is categorized by the ions found in the water. A distinction is also made between 'temporary' and 'permanent' hard water.

 

Temporary hardness

Temporary hardness is caused by a combination of calcium ions and bicarbonate ions in the water. It can be removed by boiling the water or by the addition of lime (calcium hydroxide). Boiling promotes the formation of carbonate from the bicarbonate and precipitates calcium carbonate out of solution, leaving water that is softer upon cooling.

 

The following is the equilibrium reaction when calcium carbonate (CaCO3) is dissolved in water:

 

Upon heating, less CO2 is able to dissolve into the water (see Solubility). Since there is not enough CO2 around, the reaction cannot proceed from left to right, and therefore the CaCO3 will not dissolve as rapidly. Instead, the reaction is forced to the left (i.e. products to reactants) to re-establish equilibrium, and solid CaCO3 is formed. Boiling the water will remove hardness as long as the solid CaCO3 that precipitates out is removed. After cooling, if enough time passes the water will pick up CO2 from the air and the reaction will again proceed from left to right, allowing the CaCO3 to "re-dissolve" into the water.

 

For more information on the solubility of calcium carbonate in water and how it is affected by atmospheric carbon dioxide, see calcium carbonate.

 

Permanent hardness

Permanent hardness is hardness (mineral content) that cannot be removed by boiling. It is usually caused by the presence of calcium and magnesium sulfates and/or chlorides in the water, which become more soluble as the temperature rises. Despite the name, permanent hardness can be removed using a water softener or ion exchange column.

 

 

Hard water causes scaling, which is the left over mineral deposits that are formed after the hard water had evaporated, this is also known as limescale. The scale can clog pipes, ruin water heaters, coat the insides of tea and coffee pots, and decrease the life of toilet flushing units.

 

Similarly, insoluble salt residues, that remain in hair after shampooing with hard water, tend to leave hair rougher and harder to untangle. [1]

 

In industrial settings, water hardness must be constantly monitored to avoid costly breakdowns in boilers, cooling towers, and other equipment that comes in contact with water. Hardness is controlled by the addition of chemicals and by large-scale softening with zeolite and ion exchange resins.

 

 

[edit] Measurement

It is possible to measure the level of hard water by obtaining a free water testing kit. These are supplied by most water softening companies. There are several different scales used to describe the hardness of water in different contexts.

 

mmol/L (millimoles per litre)

mg/L calcium carbonate equivalent

grains/gallon (gpg)

1 gr/U.S. gal = 17.11 mg/L

Parts per million weight/volume (ppm w/v or ppm m/v)

Various obsolete "degrees":

Clark degrees (°Clark)/English degrees (°E)

- conversion to mg/L calcium: divide by 0.175

One degree Clark corresponds to one grain of calcium carbonate in one Imperial gallon of water which is equivalent to 14.28 parts calcium carbonate in 1,000,000 parts water.

Deutsche Härte (German hardness) (°dH)

- conversion to mg/L calcium: divide by 0.14

One degree German corresponds to one part calcium oxide in 100,000 parts of water.

French degrees (°f) (shares symbol with degree Fahrenheit, but in lowercase)

- conversion to mg/L calcium: divide by 0.25

One degree French corresponds to one part calcium carbonate in 100,000 parts of water.

American degrees

One degree American corresponds to one part calcium carbonate in 1,000,000 parts water (1 mg/L or 1 ppm)

Degrees of general hardness (dGH)

One degree of general hardness corresponds to 10 mg of calcium oxide or magnesium oxide per litre of water

Because it is the precise mixture of minerals dissolved in the water, together with the water's pH and temperature, that determines the behaviour of the hardness, a single-number scale does not adequately describe hardness. Descriptions of hardness correspond roughly with ranges of mineral concentrations:

 

Soft: 0 - 20 mg/L as calcium

Moderately soft: 20 - 40 mg/L as calcium

Slightly hard: 40 - 60 mg/L as calcium

Moderately hard: 60 - 80 mg/L as calcium

Hard: 80 - 120 mg/L as calcium

Very Hard >120 mg/L as calcium

 

[edit] Indices

Several indices are used to describe the behaviour of calcium carbonate in water, oil, or gas mixtures.[2]

 

Langelier Saturation Index (LSI)

The Langelier Saturation Index (sometimes Langelier Stability Index) is a calculated number used to predict the calcium carbonate stability of water. It indicates whether the water will precipitate, dissolve, or be in equilibrium with calcium carbonate. Langelier developed a method for predicting the pH at which water is saturated in calcium carbonate (called pHs). The LSI is expressed as the difference between the actual system pH and the saturation pH.

 

LSI = pH - pHs

 

If the actual pH of the water is below the calculated saturation pH, the LSI is negative and the water has a very limited scaling potential. If the actual pH exceeds pHs, the LSI is positive, and being supersaturated with CaCO3, the water has a tendency to form scale. At increasing positive index values, the scaling potential increases.

 

Ryznar Stability Index (RSI)

The Ryznar stability index (RSI) uses a database of scale thickness measurements in municipal water systems to predict the effect of water chemistry.

 

Puckorius Scaling Index (PSI)

The Puckorius Scaling Index (PSI) uses slightly different parameters to quantify the relationship between the saturation state of the water and the amount of limescale deposited.

 

Other indices

Other indices include the Larson-Skold Index[3], the Stiff-Davis Index[4], and the Oddo-Tomson Index[5].

 

 

[edit] Health considerations

The World Health Organization says, "There does not appear to be any convincing evidence that water hardness causes adverse health effects in humans."[6]

 

Some studies have shown a weak inverse relationship between water hardness and cardiovascular disease in men, up to a level of 170 mg calcium carbonate per litre of water. The World Health Organization has reviewed the evidence and concluded the data were inadequate to allow for a recommendation for a level of hardness.[6]

 

In a review by František Kožíšek, M.D., Ph.D. National Institute of Public Health, Czech Republic there is a good overview of the topic, and unlike the WHO, sets some recommendations for the maximum and minimum levels of calcium (40-80 mg/L) and magnesium (20-30 mg/L) in drinking water, and a total hardness expressed as the sum of the calcium and magnesium concentrations of 2-4 mmol/L.[7]

 

Other studies have shown weak correlations between cardiovascular health and water hardness.[8][9][10]

 

Very soft water can corrode the metal pipes in which it is carried and as a result the water may contain elevated levels of cadmium, copper, lead and zinc [6].

 

 

[edit] Softening

It is often desirable to soften hard water, as it does not readily form lather with soap. Soap is wasted when trying to form lather, and in the process, scum forms. Hard water may be treated to reduce the effects of scaling and to make it more suitable for laundry and bathing.

 

 

[edit] Process

A water softener works on the principle of cation or ion exchange in which ions of the hardness minerals are exchanged for sodium or potassium ions, effectively reducing the concentration of hardness minerals to tolerable levels.[11]

 

The most economical way to soften household water is with an ion exchange water softener. This unit uses sodium chloride (table salt) to recharge beads made of the ion exchange resins that exchange hardness mineral ions for sodium ions. Artificial or natural zeolites can also be used. As the hard water passes through and around the beads, the hardness mineral ions are preferentially absorbed, displacing the sodium ions. This process is called ion exchange. When the bead or sodium zeolite has a low concentration of sodium ions left, it is exhausted, and can no longer soften water. The resin is recharged by flushing (often back-flushing) with saltwater. The high excess concentration of sodium ions alter the equilibrium between the ions in solution and the ions held on the surface of the resin, resulting in replacement of the hardness mineral ions on the resin or zeolite with sodium ions. The resulting saltwater and mineral ion solution is then rinsed away, and the resin is ready to start the process all over again. This cycle can be repeated many times.

 

Some softening processes in industry use the same method, but on a much larger scale. These methods create an enormous amount of salty water that is costly to treat and dispose of.

 

Temporary hardness, caused by hydrogen carbonate (or bicarbonate) ions, can be removed by boiling. For example, calcium hydrogen carbonate, often present in temporary hard water, is boiled in a kettle to remove the hardness. In the process, a scale forms on the inside of the kettle in a process known as "furring of kettles". This scale is composed of calcium carbonate.

 

Ca(HCO3)2 → CaCO3 + CO2 + H2O

 

Hardness can also be reduced with a lime-soda ash treatment. This process, developed by Thomas Clark in 1841, involves the addition of slaked lime (calcium hydroxide — Ca(OH)2) to a hard water supply to convert the hydrogen carbonate hardness to carbonate, which precipitates and can be removed by filtration:

 

Ca(HCO3)2 + Ca(OH)2 → 2CaCO3 + 2H2O

 

The addition of sodium carbonate also softens permanently hard water containing calcium sulfate, as the calcium ions form calcium carbonate which precipitates out and sodium sulfate is formed which is soluble. The calcium carbonate that is formed sinks to the bottom. Sodium sulfate has no effect on the hardness of water.

 

Na2CO3 + CaSO4 → Na2SO4 + CaCO3

 

 

[edit] Why does my skin feel slippery after washing with softened water, unlike hard water?

Some confusion may arise after a first experience with soft water. Hard water does not lather well with soap and leaves a "less than clean" feeling. Soft water lathers better than hard water but leaves a "slippery feeling" on the skin after use with soap. For example, a certain water softener manufacturer contests that the "slippery feeling" after showering in soft water is due to "cleaner skin" and the absence of "friction-causing" soap scum.

 

However, the chemical explanation is that softened water, due to its sodium content, has a much reduced ability to combine with the soap film on your body and therefore, it is much more difficult to rinse off.[12] Solutions are to use less soap or a synthetic liquid body wash.

 

 

[edit] Regional Information

 

[edit] Hard water in Australia

Analysis of water hardness in major Australian cities by the Australian Water Association shows a range from very soft (Melbourne) to very hard (Adelaide). Total Hardness levels of Calcium Carbonate in mg/L are: Canberra: 40[13]; Melbourne: 10 - 26[14]; Sydney: 39.4 - 60.1[15]; Perth: 29 - 226[16]; Brisbane: 100[17]; Adelaide: 134 - 148[18]; Hobart: 5.8 - 34.4[19]; Darwin: 31[20].

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[edit] See also

Water Portal

Water softener

Water quality

Water treatment

Water purification

[DrDee]

Hi Midnight Rose,

Soil is more forgiving of hard water then hydro. But the pH may be too high with all that calcium in it. Since you're just doing a small soil grow, you probably don't have a pH and EC meter. In your situation, this is what I'd do: The rain water can be filtered and sterilized with a little bleach. Allow it to sit for 24 hours for the chlorine to evaporate off. Then mix 50/50 rain and tap water. That should lower the pH a bit and dilute the tap water. Also, you shouldn't need to add any extra calcium.

Dee

[Rose Gardener]

Hi sunny, dee.

 

Thanks for the wiki post, but I read that before I posted my question.

Wiki is my bible.

 

Dee, I do have a pH meter, it one of those little probe jobs. It's actually a pH, moister and light meter in one.

My soil pH is sitting at about 7, where as my tap water is around 8.

 

I was actually thinking of picking up a filter jug thing and running my rain and tap water thru it. Do you, (or anyone else) think that this would help to get the shit out of the water?

I could adjust the pH of the water afterwards too...

 

What I might do in the mean time is just adjust the pH and see how Susie goes. She's going good so far. About 80 mm tall and has sprouted her second set of serrated leaves.

[DrDee]

MRG,

How Susie is doing is the first and formost clue as to how you're doin' tending her, and it sounds like she's doing good.. The filter will take out sediment but not micro-organisms. So, to be safe, I personally would chlorine the rainwater. If it were fresh rainwater...no problem, but with algae and other organisms growing in it, I'd sterilize it. It only takes a tiny bit per gallon and evaporates fast. In the meantime, your idea of correcting pH on your tap water sounds good. You may be able to do he whole grow that way. Good luck with your little darling.

Dee

[mull]

Hi MRG, hope all's good in your garden today.

 

Just wondering about the tap water, is it from town supply or a bore. If a bore then that sure explains the hardness.

 

Do you have room to run 2 plants and feed one with the hard, other with the rain? Try them out. Bore water is sometimes fine for plants and in some places is potable for humans.

 

That salt and resin core wiki mentions does work, but does take a lot of salt.

 

Your filter pot might be a good go if it has activated charcoal in it.

 

Few other chemical ways and even uv treatments, or then r/o. Best of luck with it mate.

[SukonmiSkunk]

holy crap sunny.. a simple yes or no would have probably been ok...

 

whats the rainwater like.. have you given it a PPM and PH test?

 

if the rainwater is a little brown.. probably from wriggly shit.. .. it would probably still be ok.. and if youre feeding a plant in soil.. it would probably be more than ok...

 

what i do with my rainwater... is filter it with a piece of cotton as im filling my bottles.. takes a little longer to fill.. but it comes out very clean.. i have also just installed a new tank.. as the last one was so old it had holes all through it.. it looked like a vege strainer when it rained.. ... you should have seen all the slimy crap in the bottom.. and i used that for about 3 years in my hydro set up with no problems at all..

 

if you can use the rainwater.. it will most definitely be better than tap water.. even if it is a little brown...

[Rose Gardener]

Firstly, thanks for the ideas and suggestions.

 

Second...

 

The tap water is town supply, sometimes our water even comes out brown!

 

The filter jug idea was to filter the tap water more than the rain water. Hopefully it would remove all the shit and leave relatively clean crap free h2o that I can then pH adjust for Susie.

After all, they sell these things to clean water for people consumption!

 

I really don't like the idea of adding chlorine to the water I'll be using on Susie, despite it clearing away quickly... I just don't like it. Couldn't I just boil the shit outta the rain water after filtering the particle matter out?

 

I do have room to have two plants going, but since this is my first, and experimental, grow, I'm just doing the mystery bean. I wanna get my shit sorted properly before I start any of the Bellas.

 

I have nfi how r/o works, the name kinda sounds complicated. I'm looking for simple and super cost effective ways.

 

I don't have the equipment to do any PPM testing. And nope, haven't checked the pH of the rain water yet.

 

The brown tinge in one lot of rain water I have collected is from the water I collected from the outdoor plant saucers... It's probably leftover fertilizer and wot not. I hadn't planned on using rainwater for Susie at this point and was only interested in keeping what water I could. Level 6 restrictions and all.

The other lot of rain water (not a lot of it) is clean n clear, but still has some dirt and crap in the bottom of the buckets.

Yeah, I don't have a tank, so I just put my buckets out to catch it and pour it all into a lidded bucket for safe keeping.

 

What I was thinking of doing with the clear rain water is just running it thru a cloth of coffee filter or whatever i can find, to clean the particulate matter out, and then maybe use that for Susie. But I don't have much and there's not guarantees as to when it rains...

 

I think that just about covers it all.

 

Sorry for the point form reply, it was a little easier to reply this way. My mind is racing a million miles an hour jumping around a hundred different subjects...

 

Cheers.

~M.

[DrDee]

MRG,

Sounds like you have enough info, but I'll clarify a few things that you seemed to have questions about. Oh, and about the intermittant brown tap water...that's usually iron and caused by older irion pipes rusting a bit. I wouldn't think that would hurt your plant and probably a filter like a Britta (US brand with a carbon filter) would remove the rust.

 

A reverse osmosis RO filter is a several hundred dollar unit that uses mult-atages to remove calcium and other solids. They work good but it's overkill just for a couple of plants.

 

Chlorine is used by most city water departments in the US to kill bacteria and organisms but I understand your desire to avoid it.

 

Suko felt your rain water was OK to use and I tend to agree, especially now that I know that you have some that is cleaner. pH is probably OK...rainwater tends to be on the acidic side, but check it anyway. And for future reference, if you can borrow a TDS/EC meter to check your tap water...a reading of 250 to 300 ppm total disolved solids is about the upper limit. I just went through installing a RO system because my water was at 330ppm. The RO unit brought it down to 30 ppm Let's see, one, two, three..four. Yup, I covered it all. And I hope you sing songs to Suzie...she'll love that.

 

Peace,

Dee

[Rose Gardener]

Thanks for that Dee.

I figured the brown would be from the old pipes rusting because this place was built back in the 70's... You can tell that just by looking at the ceiling! It's that lumpy bumpy crap that's a bitch to clean!

 

I was thinking along the lines of the Brita jugs. Big W tends to have specials where you can buy two and save 20 bux. It works for me. One jug for Susie, one jug for me. The tap water tastes like !

I thought an r/o set up wouldn't be cheap. If it sounds exxy, it usually is!

 

Chlorine and other rubbish is put in out water too, at the treatment plants. And I have noticed in some areas they put even more in of a summer time. It's hell on the fish if you don't use A.C.E. and treat the water first!

 

I'm hoping it rains more, that way I can catch a bit more fresh water. I'm planning on buying a 20 Lt jerry can or two so I can store the water and keep it mozzie free...

Heh, I used to deliberately breed mozzies a long time ago... For my fish. They used to bonkers over the lil wrigglers!

 

Anyway, I will look into seeing if I can borrow one of those meters you mentioned, I have nfi where from tho because I don't know any growers IRL. I like the idea of keeping it that way too. Then you don't have to worry about them letting you down or screwing you over. The only one to blame if something goes ass up then is yourself.

 

I don't sing to Susie, but whenever I go and look in on her I tend to breath all over her. Hoping the CO2 in my breath will encourage some nice growth!

 

Cheers.

~M.