consecutive generation clone degenerating

[mr.bungle]

Hey People

Got a question for you all, how many generations down can you clone before degeneration occures in the plant, if at all?

 

Cheers

Bungle

[WantDaChronic]

yes it does happen, but the rest depends on genetics

[bufo marinus]

hehe, lots of opinion on this one I reckon.

Filael degradation, I think, is the term used I think to describe what your saying Mr Bungle.

Consecutive cuts from lower spindly shoots can lead down this path.

The other end of this theory is that continual cloning the best tips can actually improve the line

[loylty gets u nothing]

personally ive not seen it

although i did have an old mum that hermied on me

she used to be good then bang clones started throwin balls

after cloning for close to 14 mnths

kept clone and flowered mum with same responce

from my understanding it takes years for the degradation of clones

but i could be wrong

all the best,good question

bil

[Shithappens]

Me and a friend used the same strain Skunk #1 for a while 4 1/2 years together and he had it 2 yrs before i started on it so that was 6+yrs from seed

 

I did have one bunch go hermy but just got some more clones from him and kept growing it apart from that we both cloned and went well with it. He is still running that strain and still getting nice buds but i started having some minor hassles with it so changed better to be safe then sorry plus i wanted an updated strain.

 

So yeh you can keep going with the same strain but i think if you get a genetic stuff up or fault in a clone it will continue in all siblings of the affected one unless you step back into a clone that doesnt have that fault

[mull]

I'd say a clone is an exact copy of the genetics it came from. The success of cutting, striking and growing techniques can vary; fungi, pests and diseases etc can all effect the lines comparable yield from the last generation, but it should still be the same genetics, with the same potential as a grow done under favourable conditions.

 

I've taken some pretty shitty near dead popcorn flowering clones, off a long term generationally cloned strain flowered out and in time revegged back to making good mothers. Just as good as a clone ofa clone ofa clone ofa clone, well exactly the same. Haven't seen any filial degradation so to speak. Only poor techniques or environmental factors effecting the quality of individual clones or whole batches.

 

Clone on

[postman]

Guys i think the term your looking for is called genetic drift and is way too complicated for my tiny brain cells, do a google and get a head buzz from the subject.

[Luke Skywalker]

It's all about phenotype and genotype. A plant can have the same genotype as another, (parent and clone) but look different when grown under different conditions.

 

Sports can also happen, where a genetic error in development causes a new trait to appear on one branch of a plant, which can then be passed down the line... kinda like getting a red rose on a white rose bush, then taking cuttings from the red rose branch and all subsequent plants from that cutting will be red.

 

Generally speaking though, clone degeneration over time is something I think is much more likely environmental than anything else. Take healthy cuttings from healthy plants and it should be fine.

 

Line degradation from uncontrolled breeding is real enough, without human selection pressures you can certainly quickly see a degradation in the plants over subsequent generations. But a clone is a clone is a clone is a clone. They're called clones for a reason. Look after a plant well, and provided the genetic code is the same you should be laughing.

 

Orchid growers regularly mericlone plants, where a tiny piece of meristem (the indefinitely dividing cells like stemcells at the tip of a branch or at a node) can be used to create millions of progeny. Some will mutate, and this is more a function of genetic errors occuring in culture rather than anything intrinsic to the method, but the vast marjority are identical to the parent plant.

 

Short answer, I don't think it exists, but I wouldn't rule it out. Doesn't hurt to change lines every now and again though, and keeping a mother plant for a couple of crops of clones then replacing with a clone again after say 6 months should reduce the amount of successive generations you're producing, and reduce any possible damage or sporting.

[bufo marinus]

Hmmm maybe Filial degradation is not the correct term after looking through some stuff on this subject.

Filial is the term for F1, my mistake.

Plenty of posts in the grow forums(I can think of AussieJoes Skunk#1 over 20 years old) where the owner has noted a deviation from how the plant normally grows. So whilst genetics may not be changing, and I don't know if that is quite correct either, why do plants take longer to flower, grow spindlier, or even produce tastier buds sometimes as some owners claim?

[MongyMan]

When a seed is germinated it has nice new healthy DNA within its cells. Just like a new born child. Age, the environment and stress will take its toll on this DNA over time, bringing with it the problems associated with old age. Genetic change is enevitable over time. Depending on the DNA present in the beginning, it will take longer in some cases than others untill this becomes a problem. As bufo said eailier, where a clone is taken from on a plant plays a big factor in this. Weak lower spindly branches have a higher chance of having DNA damage than strong healthy top branches. Any change to otherwise normal healthy DNA is a mutation. (cancer is an example of a negative outcome of DNA mutation, caused in alot of cases by a virus ) but as Luke said this genetic degredation is not always a bad thing

Sports can also happen, where a genetic error in development causes a new trait to appear on one branch of a plant, which can then be passed down the line... kinda like getting a red rose on a white rose bush, then taking cuttings from the red rose branch and all subsequent plants from that cutting will be red.

colchicine http://biotech.icmb.utexas.edu/botany/colch.html is a chemical used to cause DNA change often for a positive outcome.

Simply put I would say that it depends on the genetics you start with and the environment they are grown in as Luke said

Take healthy cuttings from healthy plants and it should be fine.

There will always be some plants that show problems after a few consecutive clones but from my exp, it takes a long time untill there is any noticible changes or problems with the practice. After all most nursery plants are clones.

Using the same mum for a while to take clones rather than clone off clones each time imo helps to avoid any problems for longer too.