Does oxidation alter cannabis effects

[Infinitee]

Forgive the random interjection, but I just had me a thought (very rare thing round 'ere).

 

I think it's possible and plausible that when certain 'active' chemicals within cannabis are oxidized more than normal, it causes the classical 'creeper' effect that some highs can get - where a hit seems very mild, but creeps up in intensity until you suddenly realise : hey! i'm toastered.

 

Basically, all i'm assuming is that extra-oxidation changes one active chemical into another (or another form of itself) which causes the smoked cannabis to have less of a THWAK! effect and more of a creeper come-on effect.

 

Does anybody have any thoughts on the prob-/poss-ibility of this? OR any thoughts remotely related?

Cool,

Stay chillin

[MongyMan]

I've wondered if it has somthing to do with THCV(Tetrahydrocannabivarin) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahydrocannabivarin Or some other yet to be researched cannabinoid.

Creeper is a genetic trait, so I dont think it is extra oxidation of THC in its basic form, more likley THC produced by the plant in a different form eg. THCV.

[Infinitee]

Ahh, thanks mongyman (and congrats on gettin' mod status, it's been a while since i have been here much).

 

I remember reading in a book (I think it was Marijuana Botany) of a number of different psychoactive chem's inside cannabis, inc. THCV and a few variants of THC, CBD, CBN et al. It did say that as the plant is growing it produces and alters concentrations of each of these (i.e. early harvest will prevent some amount of THC being converted in THCV etc.) but also that during the curing process (via oxidation, methinks) some of the main psychoactives are converted.

 

Does this not account for some of the effectual differences in very well-cured cannabis?

 

I agree though, MM that genetics has a big influence on the chemical profile of cannabis, which is why you have so many different little (nice) subtle differences between strains, but I think that during the plants life and oxidation afterwards might have some hand in altering chem composition of mj.

 

I think evidence of this difference is noticeable in vapourised material - as in curing - because it really does alter the effects of the cannabis. I would say cannabis in any sort of vape would receive extra-oxidation vs. a quick bong-toke, wouldn't it?

 

Cool, thnx.

 

Edit: It seems that cannabinol (CBN) is an oxidation product of THC, still not sure about THCV (though it seems indian and thai strains are laden with it). Either way all these have effects on the effects of the cannabis. Is there any way we could "guide" curing to give more of a certain type of high without degrading it's over-all quality?

Edited April 15, 2007 by Infinitee

[nimbin1997]

There was this time way back when I had a good batch of thai buddha sticks. I took what

I needed to last me a month and stashed the rest. Those were wrapped in aluminum foil and sarah wrap

a few times. I then buried that in corner of my garden.

 

That was a time of plenty and as my month ran out, more came in to me so I never had to dig

up that stash. Then as with all good things, that came to an end.

 

To make things worse, I forgot that stash.

 

And a year later, while gardening, loh behold! my old stash got uncovered by me.

 

It looked terrible as some moisture got in and when I unwrapped the layers on layers, came

to a sludgy mess stinking to high heaven.

 

In days of scarsity, you treasure stuff you would have thrown away in times of plenty.

 

Desparation got me to try to rescue that. So after that was dried, smoked that with very little anticipation.

 

The impact was shocking. The high started slow, and went on to intensity beyond what I know that to be.

 

To this day, I am not certain if that intensity was real, or I got detoxed during the days of scarcity.

And if that intensity was real, was the orignal stuff got fundamentally altered by the fungus and stuff that reduced that into a sludge.

 

 

NB

[MongyMan]

Ahh, thanks mongyman (and congrats on gettin' mod status, it's been a while since i have been here much).

 

Cheers Infinitee and welcome back mate.

 

I remember reading in a book (I think it was Marijuana Botany) of a number of different psychoactive chem's inside cannabis, inc. THCV and a few variants of THC, CBD, CBN et al. It did say that as the plant is growing it produces and alters concentrations of each of these (i.e. early harvest will prevent some amount of THC being converted in THCV etc.) but also that during the curing process (via oxidation, methinks) some of the main psychoactives are converted.

 

In its raw state on a live plant THC is only mildly if at all psychoactive. To become psychoactive the THC molecule needs to lose a water molecule from its chain. Once this chain is broken water will not re-bond to a THC molecule. High alkaline conditions can also break the water molecule from raw THC.

Maby, similarly, there are reactions that are needed with other cannabinoids before they have any effect.

 

I agree though, MM that genetics has a big influence on the chemical profile of cannabis, which is why you have so many different little (nice) subtle differences between strains, but I think that during the plants life and oxidation afterwards might have some hand in altering chem composition of mj.

 

Genetics is 90% of it imo. Although how the plant is grown, dried, cured and stored definatly makes a difference to what the end product is like. ie. the greatest genetics can be a poor smoke due to a bad curing process, but a smoke from good genes that has been cured well will always beat a smoke of poor genetics no matter how its been cured and dried. geneticaly the cannabinoid combinations that make for a good smoke just arn't in poorer plants.

 

"Creeper" from my exp. is a genetic trait. This is why I belive that it is due to a particular cannabinoid which I think may be THCV or a varient of it. THCV delta 9 maby, I am only guessing.

 

Either way all these have effects on the effects of the cannabis. Is there any way we could "guide" curing to give more of a certain type of high without degrading it's over-all quality?

 

It is possible to cure buds from the same plant in different ways to get different kinds of smoko from the one strain to a limited degree imo, just like flowering for shorter or longer periods changes the kind of smoke to a limited degree, but this depends on what cannabinoids are geneticaly present in the first place.

 

Edit: Oxidation is a bad thing from my understanding. Most if not all psychoactive cannabinoids oxidise into low or non-psychoactive chemicals. eg. THC ---> CBN

[Infinitee]

Just re: oxy-degradation,

 

Even though the psychoactive chemicals can change into 'less-intense' psychoactive chemicals, this is not necessarily bad. I personally crave a certain sort of high (which I would go through all hell, genetics, growth and curing to find the ideal of). I read just now that CBN shortens but intensifies metabolism of THC (analogous to THCV), I enjoy that quick Thwak into another dimension and the more intense the 'high' part, the better. I find that CBD-heavy solutions (which is found more highly concentrated in leaf-refined products like canna-budder) deaden both the body and mind and is not quite what I'm lookin' for.

 

I have never seen strains for sale where they tell me an avg concentration of main psychoactive chemicals from a run of indoor/outdoor plants. God only knows why the strain-sellerz have not got onto this. All this said, I know some people not fond of the Thwak, but fond of the creeper come-on and others who like various levels of CBD/CBN/THC etc in their material.

 

I have read there are at Least 60 psychoactive chemicals in cannabis and what I would give for either a synthetic product of each one (to combine and survey, ofc) or just how to degrade/remove some of them. Like, if THC oxidises to make CBN (but burns to make THCV), then a whole lot of oxygen-exposed marijuana/resin would have say a short quick effect .. and it would intensify a highly-THC concentrated product (like, hash for eg).

 

I dunno, but it just seems like there are more avenues to explore within just 'getting high' as it's previously been known and either the knowledge or the resources are not available for everyday, unbiased ppls like you and I to experiment with.

[RobbieGanjaSeed]

Nimbin 1997, interestin story. i recall the olden times people used to go on about burying their grass to improve it. Some used to say soaking it in rum while it was buried, but not bieng into booze, can't say what they experienced. But defiantely the idea of burying dope, and specifically the thai stick days, was reknown as a means to greatly increase potency.

 

I, and all my freindsw wanted to try it, but never found the time or patience to go through with it. And I tended to move every 6 months too, which kinda limits such experients I'd say ..

 

I've known lots of people claim to have done it, but can't say if any of it was bulshit or not, as you know, so much rumor/myth exists in these issues, who can say when we're being lied to.

 

But its just that what you wrote seems so much like something that people once belived as a solid truth. Even the smelly ugly mess you spoke of. Some people would say it had to be sealed, but then I miss the point, while others insited it had to be "earthy", and wrapped in cloth.

 

I reckon what you experienced was a genuine increase, but i can't give you any science why, just that I've heard it spoken of so much.

 

cheers

rob

[nimbin1997]

Robbie,

 

Reading your input is the first time I heard that people burying herbs to improve that.

 

I was in a country that you do not want ever to have too much herbs found on you. We had to take very defensive measures. No ziplock bags in those days or I would have used that instead of alum foil and sarah wrap as I just wanted to store that safely.

 

Those old habits carried over here in the way you see how I prepare my j s, loaded tips which could be taken in a couple of deep drags leaving no evidence especially when you are outside and out and about.

 

So when I rediscovered what I buried, my initial excitment took a dive when I saw it became a mess of stinking sludge. That smell was so bad that I gagged.

 

At that stage, it was about 2 very dry months. One of the longest period that I detoxed. I so nearly threw that away, but after 2 dry month, I would have smoked the sludge from bottom of bong.

 

That changed potency shocked me and later, my good friend as well.

 

I never got to doing that again as I live and worked in other countries with adequate supplies of herbs and their laws not as drastic in the land I grew up in.

 

NB

[RobbieGanjaSeed]

Well mate, like I said, it's all been rumor to me, but when I was younger, in the early 80s ay, plenty of people in my circles acepted it as genuione. I'd hate to consider it going rancid as you descibed, man you must have been desperate ey?

 

But just since I wrote that, I've been thinking, and I recall Mr. Nice (Howard Marks) very breifly outlining inhis book "Mr. Nice" how they make hash in the mountainous asian regions of maybe afghanistan (i'm really guessing now where it took place). I studied every word on that page and was angry on him for the only time in the book, for not going into more intimate detail of just how they made the hash up there, but I'm almost certain it involves a period of burial, in sheepskin or goatskin if memory serves me well.

 

I read, re-read, read ir backwards, upside down inside out and back to front, trying to get every detail I could (in the few paragraphs he mentions it in) of how they manuactured the hash he was punting, but he was decidedly sketchy on details, and I suppose that wasn't by accident.

 

But at any rate, if I have remmebered correctly, and burial of the hash did take part in the process (and it had nothing to do with security, that was pretty well taken care of with other means), then there has to be something to the idea regarding potency. I can't see why people would risk mould and so forth if there were no benifits...

 

There must be more info on the matter somehwere ...

 

cheers mate

rob

[ants]

Just wanted to bump this up and re open discussion.