Flushing ....

[Taipan]

Well apart from these couple of curly ones from the mods hehe it wasn't a complete blood bath

Fair enough, now let's move on.

When the tips are burning? for sure to get rid of excessive/high levels of nutrient/salts and bring the EC of the root zone down.

Flushing at the end, everyone seems to agree it is helpful and I have seen my own buds with no flush Snap, Crackle and Pop when pulling a cone too.

But in regards to flushing, when we switch over to 12/12, and I do the same, as I start running the flower nutes through the coco the week prior , how beneficial is it really?

Ok all nutes are not created equal, but for the purpose of this discussion, this is the analysis on Green Dream from Flairform

 

Just want to say Flairform has always been a very reputable company. The owner is a horticultural chemist and all of their products are "developed" and not "copied". And they never really got into the whole marketing trip in the early days so they never really gained the popularity of others. Very good products. I haven't got access to those products at the moment, do they have other recommendations for the actual strength to feed plants? Or do they leave that up to the grower to decide?

[bufo marinus]

In regards to their recommendations no I haven't seen anything specific, but then again maybe it's in here somewhere http://www.flairform.com/hints.htm

I'd tend to agree on the flushing between veg & flower, as you can see in the analysis chart above there's not a big difference in Nitrogen really, and Phosforous and Potassium are increased. All secondary minerals remain unchanged.

How flushing all the mineral salts out and replacing them with basically the same ones is supposed to help is beyond me?

[auspamp]

After sifting through this thread, I would like to offer one piece of advice. That is let's listen to someone who has years of experience. Obviously Tiapan knows his shit and we should listen to him. The moderator that has his dick stuck up a tight arse should shut up and take some words of wisdom. The point that most of you are missing is the fact that flushing with fresh cold fresh water may be actually harming our plants is a major point of concern. Lets not get caught up in the E-Dick comparisan, and lets think about what has been said.

Thankyou to all the contributors to this thread, you input is valuable. The question I have is, is what if Taipan is right? Everyone is missing the point,....... What if flushing during the grow cycle is actuallly doing harm to our plants? Fuck the political correctness, what if flushing our plants with fresh water is actuallly doing harm? People can offer arguments but can they stick by what they are saying?? We are here to learn. not guage someones E-Dick.

 

That is the only point that has been made that is worth considering. Instead of bitching, lets either prove Taipan right or wrong. Don't get me wrong, I am actually on Taipans side, because he is thinking outside of the square. Insteaad of scareing off people with valid points, lets put them to practice, and thn prooof. I bet that Tiapan did not make his comments lightly, and I bet he did not expect the responce he got. Fuck.... I am disgusted with the Ozstoners reaction to this thread. How dare the moderators act in such an arrogant and abusive way to someone's point of view. We are all here to learn bettter ways to grow our favorite plant.

The whole point is "what if flushing our plants on a regular basis is actually doing harm to our plants"?. Instead of getting a big E-Dick, lets ponder the possibility. I for one have found that providing the plants with less is more benificial than over providing. Can we all agree on that?

 

Tiapan, I beg you to provide more input, because you obviously have the experience to back it up. I think that the moderator in question has been rude, arrogant and obnoxious. The Moderators may control what is printed but it is their responsibility to make sure we can all grow the same plant to the best of our abiities.

My questtion is, "what if Tiapan is right an flushing the plants through the grow cycle is actualy detrimental? It actualy makes sence when you think about it.

[Luke Skywalker]

And our point is, what if everyone else involved in the industry of growing pot for personal consumption (a fairly large proportion) and almost all who grow hydroponically is right? Flushing excessive salts from media as they accumulate is pretty much accepted practice, because if you don't, your plants die. How many plants have we seen on these boards that are almost totally FUBAR'd (due to massive over fert) that end up recovering and doing quite nicely thank you because they were advised to flush weekly or fortnightly with fresh pH adjusted water. Don't know where the cold thing comes from, using water at the correct temp is just common sense. It has nothing to do with flushing plants per se, unless you're suggesting that those who do it just use tap water straight through the pots....

 

There is some sense to the argument that a massive change to the osmotic pressure zone directly next to the roots will harm the fine root hairs and damage the plant. The practicality is that if you don't flush out your media after running a system for a period of time then the salt levels in said media begin to build up. There are points as you go along this route where this is first a little annoying to the plant, then a bit more bothersome, then really hurts, then strangles, then kills. Unless you irrigate with copious amounts of water which runs to waste (like 50% or more runoff with each irrigation, with multiple irrigations per day) then you're going to have this problem at one stage or another. Even with that level of runoff, you end up with a consistent raising in the base e.c. level past what the fertiliser input is of a few e.c. points. If you run a recirc system on a small scale, (i.e. no computerised testing and dosing) and top up the levels in the tank regularly with water and fertilisers, then you can forget about it. IMO you'd never run a recirc system with much success or yeild if you never flush it out, and periodically dump the solution and replace it. If you have hard water, this compounds the problem exponentially, as the levels of unused ions quickly builds up as fresh water is added to the tank to make up the levels.

 

It's true, some growers have grown perfectly happy plants within pots which were so salt laden you could ice-skate on them. They would have grown monsters if they had of flushed though.

 

You can have an opposing opinion to prevailing wisdom, put it very strongly, with a lot of intelligent and experienced thought behind it, and still be wrong. I accept that I can be wrong too, but it won't remove my right to a strong opinion. Until someone can show me side by side shots of double blind control trials which prove that flushing media is detrimental to plants beyond what excessive salt build up is, I think I'll go with what I know from my experience.

 

It's not about e-dick, we all have a fair chunk of experience and knowledge ourselves ya know. I don't begrudge others opinions, but I'm not going to censor my own to prevent others being offended if I think I'm right.

 

Sorry if you don't like it, and sorry if you think that this is all a pissing contest. It's not. It's an argument over plants and what growers do to them to keep them happy, healthy and yeilding well.

 

IMHO

[pipeman]

I think Taipan is making some very good points and they are being lost in a sea of meaningless replies by others who want someone to be right and someone to be wrong. There doesn't have to be a right and a wrong here.

[bufo marinus]

There is some sense to the argument that a massive change to the osmotic pressure zone directly next to the roots will harm the fine root hairs and damage the plant. The practicality is that if you don't flush out your media after running a system for a period of time then the salt levels in said media begin to build up.

 

Now we're getting somewhere

[SukonmiSkunk]

what tiapan is getting at.. and I do tend to agree.. in most part... is to have you're system so finely tuned that flushing then becomes a thing of the past... well until the final 2 weeks.. as we all agree on that...

having the system so finely tuned.. isn't an easy task.. and yes .. comes with years and years of experience....

 

as for flushing the plants.. I think people are getting mixed up...

during the grow cycle we don't flush our plants at all... this is what we do in the final stages... while we are growing/flowering we flush as luke has said to rid the medium of excess salts... and mainly to refresh the water... but as tiapan has said.. and I think what hes getting at is having he system so finely tuned as to not get the salts built up... so you shouldn't need to flush.

 

he is taking this concept from the many hydroponic gardens around Australia.. and the world... and although I have been extremely lazy in the past and just added fresh water.. using the salts built up as my nutrients.. as the levels even out... I still believe that flushing the system and the medium before adding fresh nutrients is beneficial... maybe not necessary... but the plants NEVER seem to suffer.. as I grow in perlite and the perlite tends to hold a lot more salts than most other mediums...

of course there are many different ways to grow a plant, harvest a plant and to cure a plant... most work well .. others don't... its a matter of finding whats right for you...

 

the thing here is.. on this site we deal with a lot a newbie growers.. who don't really know much.. so they take advice from one person to another.. and most of the times, while the advice is generally good... the two techniques might not work with each other... we see this a lot.. mostly the only way to undo what has been done is to flush the medium well and start again with fresh water and nutrients...

 

I remember when I used to start people off with their new hobby... id say.. do EXACTLY what I tell you.. don't go asking the hydro shop guy..dont go asking your mate what he thinks... although they might know different things.. what they might be telling you might not work in this system... what IM telling you DOES work.. look at my tin...

 

so you see there are many different ways to grow a plant.. but every way might not work in every system.. oh sure the basics are the same.. but as the system changes... the techniques change

 

flushing the plant can ONLY happen when the medium has been rid of ALL the salts.. only then can the plant start to use up available nutrients with in the plant... if your water measures at 50ppm.. and you've flushed you're medium so the water runoff is reading.. say 100ppm.. then this leaves only 50ppm of nutrients in the medium.. very clean.. now while you're running clean water through.. the plant will only be drinking clean water.. therefore searching for what ever nutrients it can find to survive.. it finds this in the leaves... as the leaves take their nutrients from the roots... and the flowers take their nutrients from the leaves.. you will start noticing severe nutrient deficiencies on the leaves.. this means that theres nothing left in the medium.. while the plant is sucking everything it can from the leaves... this will rid most of the nutrients from the plant.. resulting in a way more flavorsome bud...

 

all I will say in a closing note... as flushing during the cycle may not be 100% necessary ... regular flushing ( dumping the water and running clean water through the medium.. then adding fresh water and nutrients, usually over a 12 hour cycle) wont harm your plants AT all and will stop just about every issue you will get when it comes to indoor hydroponic growing... as experience comes.. you will notice slight issues before they take hold and can adjust accordingly...

[SukonmiSkunk]

oh.. im not going to defend my self... on how experienced I am... why the hell should I?? take a look around and read some of my tutorials... have a look at some of my grows.. I have grow diaries to back up what I am saying... I aint just pissing in the wind with some theory.. what I will tell you WILL work.. how do I know??? because Ive done it... as ive done pretty much nearly every experiment known to indoor hydroponics... ive tried growing on tap water.. doesn't work... plants need certain levels of nutrients to grow properly... im pretty sure me being the cheap cunt that I am.. if I didn't need to buy nutrients I sure as hell wouldn't be...

flushing DOES work.. and will NEVER harm your plants... growing under flouros doesn't work... oh it does.. but HIDs are certainly 100% better...

oh yeah.. and although flowering under a MH will get you great results.. a HPS will do a shit load better... more plants kept small will yield a shit a load more than one plant grown in the same space... a parabolic shade will distribute the light more evenly in a square grow room where as a batwing shade will do better in a rectangular grow room..

just a few things Ive fucked around with while in my experiment stage...

 

oh.. and SODA water.. give that a try... if youve heard of this technique.. then its come from ME... not fucking high times... I told them...

[Frazz]

After sifting through this thread, I would like to offer one piece of advice. That is let's listen to someone who has years of experience. Obviously Tiapan knows his shit and we should listen to him.

 

Fuck.... I am disgusted with the Ozstoners reaction to this thread. How dare the moderators act in such an arrogant and abusive way to someone's point of view.

 

You are no better for hurling abuse ... idiot!

[blacksaint]

For those interested, there's some interesting info re flushing at www.autopot.com.au

 

The Autopot principle does not see the need for flushing during grow/flower.

Some examples of 10+ yr old plants that have never been flushed. Sure, they're not mjs, but they are mostly plants that are much less hardy than our favourite herb.

 

I'm growin in the Autopots myself, and personally I'm a flusher. I'm happy with my progress thus far, but I'm always willing to experiment. Personally, I'm always lookin for ways too use less water in any event.